Jamila Souffrant 0:00

You're listening to the Journey to Launch Podcast. Budgeting changed my life and finances so in this episode, we're gonna be talking about the Four Simple Rules for Successful Budgeting and Why You Even Need a Budget with Jesse Mecham.

Recording 0:17

Welcome to the Journey to Launch Podcast with your host Jamila Souffrant. As a money expert who walks her talk, she helps brave journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest, and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in five, four, three, two, one.

Jamila Souffrant 0:44

Hey, hey, hey journeyers. Welcome to the Journey to Launch Podcast. I'm super excited to have you here as I always am. Now, if you're all caught up on the podcast on the episodes, then you know it is July 2020. If you're listening to this in real time, we are celebrating the three year anniversary this month because I launched the podcast three years ago in July. And so I've been celebrating all month and it's been an exciting month, we just closed doors to the Money Launch Club. So if you are a new member, that's the online community I created to help journeyers like yourself, people who wanted more than just the podcasts more, who wanted more, more resources, more tools and the community. So I created the Money Launch Club to do that. And we closed doors last week, and I'm so excited for all the new members that joined we won't be opening up doors again until probably 2021. So I'm going to be focusing on the amazing members inside. And if you want to join us if you want to get some in the know stuff in the meantime, go to moneylaunchclub.com and sign up for the waitlist.

But there also have been some really cool behind the scenes things happening. Maybe I'll share that at the end of this episode or I might create a whole new episode about it but I'm really excited about your Journey to Launch is going, where I'm going, how I am really making my visions come through with what I want this to be, so I'm excited about that. Now if you're all caught up and you've been listening you know that YNAB you need a budget has been sponsoring the podcast all month, which has been amazing because I literally use this budgeting tool YNAB when I first started. When I first started to budget and get on this journey years ago, right like, right when I kind of started Journey to Launch I used you need to budget the app. I still use that today for my personal budget is what I recommend to people when they ask me hey, what budgeting app should I should should I try? I always recommend YNAB. So it's been amazing that I was able to partner with them that they were able to come on and sponsor the podcast for this month.

So with that I'm really excited because I get to talk to the founder of YNAB, Jesse Mecham. He's coming on the podcast today. And let me tell you this conversation. It was so enlightening for me, because yes, we're going to be talking about budgeting and the four rules that YNAB is based on. But what I really loved about this conversation is talking to Jesse about how he grew YNAB from a spreadsheet. That was a concept in 2003 and 2004, to what YNAB is today that has over 100 employees and his changing lives like it is a we didn't get into the specific numbers of how much this company probably makes, but I'm sure it's millions. And I was so impressed and also inspired by his vision. And as someone who was in the personal finance space and has dreams and a vision for what I want Journey to Launch to be, it was really inspiring. So I think from this episode, you'll get a lot. You'll get a lot about budgeting so we talk about the mechanics of it like the why you should try it out why you need a budget, but in also the entrepreneurship journey that he went on. So I think you'll get a lot a lot from this episode, and I'm excited for you to hear it.

Now if you want to get YNAB a try for free for 34 days, no credit card required, you can go to youneedabudget.com/journey. One of the things that Jesse mentioned in the interview is that they actually do live classes. Live classes every day that you can sign up for they're free. So even before you do the trial, if you just want to check it out, and I think it's between, it's like under 30 minutes, you can see exactly what this thing is like what makes it so powerful. So I would definitely recommend going to youneedabudget.com/journey to give it a try.

By the way, if you want to watch this interview, you can go to my YouTube channel. This is one of the episodes that I actually recorded the video to this interview. So you can go to my YouTube channel, search the episode show notes, or go to YouTube put in Journey to Launch.

Okay, journeyers I'm really excited because I have so this whole month we've been celebrating the three year anniversary month of the podcast and we had a special sponsor, YNAB come in and basically help celebrate with us. Not only that I actually am a true user of YNAB. I've been talking about YNAB since the beginning of starting Journey to Launch as my budgeting app. So it's amazing now that I get to talk to the founder of a YNAB, Jesse Mecham. So hi, Jesse.

Jesse Mecham 5:16

Hi. Thanks for having me on Jamila.

Jamila Souffrant 5:18

Yeah. So before you press record, I was telling Jesse that I want to kind of talk about all the things because I'm so intrigued by his journey into entrepreneurship, building such an amazing company, but then also budgeting, like I do want to talk about budgeting. And because key, it's a key tool for anyone wishing to reach a financial goal or financial independence, which is what we talk about here. So I guess first, Jesse, can you talk about like how you came to come up with the concept of YNAB? How did you even start to get this thing going?

Jesse Mecham 5:51

Yeah, well, I it started Well, before I ever have had the thought to make a business out of it, for sure. But my wife and I, we got married pretty young. I was let's see, I just turned 22, a couple months before when we got married. So we were very young, my wife wrapped up school, I still had about three years of school left to get a master's degree in accounting. So she was making the money. And we were just, we were just trying to like, get through school, I was working part time. She was a social worker. So she wasn't making a lot of money, but it was enough to support us. You know, we had not a lot of needs really, just tuition books, essentially. But then we decided we should have a baby, which is great. Except we both just were like, we really want it when this baby comes. We just want her to be able to just focus on the baby, be able to leave the job completely.

So we ended up just kind of staring at a situation where I thought, okay, at this point when our first, Porter, when Porter arrives, we'll have two years of school left. I can work part time, but I was trying to figure out how do we make it through I didn't want to borrow money at all. I didn't want to borrow any money for school and I'd had a little bit of a scholarship that was helping get us through. But at the end of the day, I had one an idea once where I was like, okay, Julie, we need about $350 per month, Julie is my wife, and we need to get $350 per month is like our shortfall. How do we make that up? I can't work more. And I said, well, maybe I could sell this little spreadsheet that she and I've been using a manager money. Maybe I could just sell this, maybe other people would want it. I've put probably 100 hours into this spreadsheet and tweaked and I felt of course, if you've built a you always feel like it's the most amazing thing ever, you know. So, and she said, she said I don't think anyone would buy it. And that was that for like, like four days. And then I was riding the bus home and I was with a buddy we live in the same neighborhood. And I floated the idea to him. And he was selling something online. I can remember what it was on the time. This is so early days and he's like, oh, I sell I sell something online. I could show you how to do it.

So that he told me I should and so I went Back to GIS, I think I'm going to give it a shot and we kind of gave it some rails, you know, like, we're only gonna spend this much time on it. And we're only gonna spend $63 to get it started. That was one of our, our things. So I just started working on getting it out there and put it out there in September of 2004 a couple months after Porter was born. And it didn't really do a lot for about eight months. But it was just enough, like a few little sales here and there, where I thought, oh, this is kind of fun and interesting. And then I rewrote our sales copy. And instead of talking all about the spreadsheet and how it calculated things, I started talking about the rules that the spreadsheet was built upon. And then sales started, started to happen. And still we're talking small, you know, but for us, it was a big deal. And, and so it was, that's something that stuck with me forever is people weren't willing looking for a tool, they were looking for a way to think about something. And that's what the four rules really have done. And we've just, we've stuck with that we just teach those rules. And I feel like we'll teach them forever. And the tool gets better and better. It's much better than a spreadsheet now, but we got rid of that quite quite quickly thereafter. But, but the rules have really been the magic.

Jamila Souffrant 9:22

And I want to definitely get into the rules. But there's so many questions and comments that came up while you were talking. So you launched it in 2004. Like this spreadsheet?

Jesse Mecham 9:31

Yeah.

Jamila Souffrant 9:32

And it was just like a downloadable file someone should go to and download. Remember the price point back then for it?

Jesse Mecham 9:38

Well, here's here's the lesson for any entrepreneur. I launched it at $9.95. And nobody bought it for two weeks. And I was running out of my $63 because we were doing ads like Google Ad Words had just launched pretty recently and things were really cheap. Like you could get a click for five cents, but no one was buying and I talked to that same friend who had told me I should sell it. I said nobody's nobody's buying it. He said, oh, it's too cheap. No one's gonna buy it if it's that cheap. And I was like, how does that work? That's backward, you know? He said, no, no, they're gonna buy it. So I put a one in front of the nine. So we sold it for $19.95. And I changed the little button. And I got my first sale that next day. So, so much of the time, we, if we're the creator of it, we love that thing. But we also devalue it right out of the gate. And so I word of caution to any any creator of any kind, you tend to just not think what you're offering is really that special. And it is, and a lot of the time you have to significantly increase your price to even land at an appropriate market price. I was I was low, like, I was so low, people weren't even thinking there was value there. And then you know, you double the price and things happen.

Jamila Souffrant 10:49

Yeah, there's so many lessons here about scale too, right? Like if you don't have a lot of sales, you'll you'll be at a loss. You won't be making profit at all selling something too cheap, but what sticks out to me what I love about YNAB and what I've tried to do with my brand is because you know, okay, there are probably a million budgeting sheets and a million blogs about budgeting and reaching financial freedom and which is all great. But what I find is that there's like a story and soul behind your brand admission, like when you talk from that angle, like that's what connects people because again, they can find this stuff for free, or put it together elsewhere for cheap. But you just talked about sale, like a sales copy. Right? So like changing it to not just be about, hey, here's what you get, just budget template you get, here's what you're unlocking in your life. Here's like the strategies or methods or methodologies behind it. And I think that's key for anyone, especially entrepreneurs, people trying to sell something. Now, the other thing is, you know, in the money space, do you think it's harder to sell things? When you talk about money and saving money? I've found that maybe it's more internal insecurity, but when I talk about Okay, should save money which I've made a conscious effort to stop saying spend less than less, but more optimize, optimize, spend what? Like what matters? Because then when I turn around and say, Well, here's something that can help you, but it cost this much, or it's an investment. I find that sometimes people are just like, wait, I'm trying to save money. Do you have any thoughts around the that kind of thing that happens for us?

Jesse Mecham 12:20

Yeah, it's interesting. This is just like personal Jesse talking. It bothers me when someone's like, you should invest in this pair of jeans. I'm like, No, you use that word wrong. You know, we're not investing in jeans. So I feel like sometimes we'll take that too far, where you're like, oh, invest in this new car, you don't invest in a car, you straight up spend money on a car, that is you know, the end. But in what you're pitching is, to me that is when you say invest, then you would expect ROI, and that that's the contender. And so you just have to paint that picture of return. What is the return here? The return doesn't have to be dollars. If we could magically wave a wand and when you started YNAB not to be not to make it sound creepy. But if someone was doing YNAB, and then we suddenly could see how many little spats did they have with their significant other and to see that number go down. That's ROI, right? Or to see that there's literally sleeping better. That's ROI. So we have to make sure that you get to the core of what you are doing for your customer. And there is there's tremendous value there. Tremendous value. It reminds me of the time Julie and I we used to regularly kind of go toe to toe on. Hey, Julie, we should spend less on groceries. She's a phenomenal cook. And so it I was kind of speaking out of both sides of my mouth. I'd be like, oh man, I love what you cook, but also, we should spend less so that wasn't very cool. But one day she she taught me this killer lesson like 10 years into our marriage. And I said Why? We could spend less here we could do some coupon and she's like, Listen, for me. A successful grocery trip is, at the time we had four kids. She says I go in and out as fast as I can. And the kids don't melt down that that was her value. So here I am trying to pitch like saving 20 bucks here, 30 bucks here, that wasn't even on her radar. So you have to really understand that the job that she was doing, there was just a smooth experience. That's what she's paying for with that grocery budget with a little bit of room where she doesn't have to stare at two different cans and figure out the per unit value and all that. It was a completely different value proposition for her. So when you're pitching something, you got to be crystal clear about the value that you're that you're delivering. For me what we're really delivering is better financial decision making, so that you do the things you should and also so that you do things you want. Those two things need to be happening. There's room for lots of people in that market.

Jamila Souffrant 14:50

I totally agree. And sometimes that is hard to measure, but it's sometimes if he hasn't so invaluable, like it's so valuable that you can't measure it and being someone in the space And earning money from it. It's, it's up to us to figure out how to communicate that properly to our audience. You know, as you were talking, I don't mean to like, um, challenge you, Jesse. But what it is. But when you you know, I think some people do say, and again, I'm all about if you want to buy the car or the jeans, whatever your choice like you say you spend on what you want, but they would probably argue and say, but this also maybe made me happier. Maybe it's if it's surface level, it's still happier, like there is a ROI, maybe not money because, you know, the cars depreciate, but I can see how someone can say, hey, but like that is actually an investment because it actually makes me happier.

Jesse Mecham 15:37

I like that because then you really, if you push the lens through that idea that push spending through that lens, I should say, then you would really say what is the ROI for these jeans. And maybe you can be more intentional and aware of what it is that you're actually looking for. So if you're just kind of, you know, some Instagram influencer says I love these jeans, tap here and you're like tap, tap, tap. It's like, well, I would I don't know about that. That's more impulse, less investment. But if you're if you're sitting there like, what is my ROI and you're really thoughtful, that's a good point. Because then we're we're being real about what it is we're looking for. In that instance, you're not looking for jeans, maybe you're looking for, and I'm way out of my league here. Maybe you're looking for like, you know, it makes you feel good. It makes you feel a little like, I don't think I'm speaking out of turn here to say, like, everyone, when you feel good in your clothes, you feel good. Like there's a factor there. So I could see that maybe I spoke too soon on investing in jeans. Now I'm trying to think of an example where you couldn't potentially just be really intentional about any purchase and I don't know, maybe so I like to challenge me. That's good.

Jamila Souffrant 16:40

Yeah. And I think that's the amazing thing about when we talk about money and why the conversation needs to switch at a certain point, right? If someone is coming to me or coming to YNAB and trying to figure things out, and they want all the things right like they want the nice car, the nice house, which is all fine, no judgment there, but then they're swimming in debt and other things like yes, you know, like, there is a priority, perhaps in how you invest. So we're investing in YNAB, right? It's a cost. It's you can try it for free for a certain time. But there's an investment to continue, or investing in certain things like that can help you get the tools or have the tools and the support to then be able one day to afford the car afford the jeans to get out of debt. Like that's where you should start first. So there there is an order of operations, I think in prioritizing what you should be doing, but I think it could be done eventually if you do it the right way.

Jesse Mecham 17:35

Absolutely. And I mean, part of our brand play, and part of probably just my personality that's kind of permeated through that over the years, is I really don't care what people spend their money on. I just want to make sure that they're being honest with themselves about it. So we did this thing for a while where we would call debt stories on the podcast and I would interview people and they would tell their story of getting out of a crazy amount of debt maybe a small amount of debt, but like all these varying stories, different income levels, and I would always ask them the question, What did you do to get out like, you know, you were in all this debt, then suddenly you're throwing 500 bucks a month at it extra or whatever, even more. And I never wanted to say like, did you do this? Did you do that? Because I didn't want to seed an idea or in any way influence their answer. So I would just ask, where did you find the money to pay off debt? And I've probably only done 30 of these interviews. So maybe that's not statistically significant, but they would, every time without exception. Each person has said they eat out less. And it's the first time where I've thought, should we tell people to not eat out as much? Or maybe we can just keep doing the same thing. Just telling them get in front of your money, start weighing your priorities, and then it's a natural conclusion. I think what you're telling me is order of operations I think most people can intuitively start to see the correct order. As soon as they're willing to tackle it, look at it, assess it. So people are really their own best financial adviser if you can give them good information.

Jamila Souffrant 19:16

Right. I think awareness is the first step. It's like the first thing, like even being aware that things are not going as well and being able to admit it to yourself. So awareness and then admitting it because you can be aware of it and say, I'm just going to ignore it, I'm not gonna do anything. But understanding that there's an opportunity to cost for everything that you do. So you can write like you can then if that makes you feel good in that moment, and you're consciously spending on it. And you could have been also put that money somewhere else, like paid off debt, like as long as you know, the opportunity cost like, okay, if I do this thing, it's going to take me this much longer to accomplish this goal that I set, and you may very well decide at that moment. You know what that matters to me most at this point, I'll take that risk, or I'll do it fine, but it's when you don't know and you just kind of doing it and then you were like, wait, I can't what's happening, you don't know what's happening.

Jesse Mecham 20:03

That's the key in that instance, where you have a fully aware individual. And they're saying I could pay off debt a little faster, or I could take this weekend trip with my family. And they decide to do the weekend trip. In that moment, they've made the correct decision. And that sounds a little counter and I hate debt, like, I don't have debt. I've, anytime I've had any I've, I've paid it off, I'm done. I just never, I never would want to touch it. But that's so personal to me. And in other instances, you have people that they just think what's gotta be this exact order. And I just don't think that's the case. There's way too much going on, for us to be able to just sit outside of that person's head and say, oh, well, they should have done this. They should have done that. If you have a fully aware individual, and they're making that call, then I would say that's the right call. Now, you could probably start to come up with exceptions and things but I think as an operating principle, We would say if that is a fully aware individual, fully functioning, okay, they made the right call. They recognized, I can't keep up with this pace of debt pay down. If we don't get a little bit of a breather, this pace is not sustainable, we need to slow down a little bit. All those things, to me are extremely valid and better for the long term, more often than not. And I've seen it happen too often, where people have just decided, I'm going to go all out, I'm going to go crazy, and they flame out. And then we've seen the flip side, where you have people that have just kind of said, I know I've got 30 grand in student loans, and I know it's gonna take me 10 years to pay it off. But they feel good. They like their pace, they're making progress. How are we supposed to mess that up?

Jamila Souffrant 21:42

It's almost just like, knowing I always related back to this idea of being in traffic and you see all these red lights in front of you. And if you don't have a GPS system, you know, you don't know how long it's gonna take you to get home so you're more anxious because maybe you have things to do. But if you have a GPS system, that's the least telling you even with the traffic, it's gonna take you two hours. Not that it makes you feel any better. That's gonna take you two hours. But you know, it's going to take you two hours.

Jesse Mecham 22:06

Yeah, there's a lot of peace in that.

Jamila Souffrant 22:08

Right, which is why something like YNAB and any tools that you want to invest in to get to your goals are important. Because that relief, that clarity, and that helping you have direction is so important. You don't like you don't really realize how much value it is to having that.

Jesse Mecham 22:26

Yeah, yeah, what we try and do with YNAB and this is I guess this is our first rule really, when we talk about giving every dollar a job. And you'd mentioned this earlier talked about kind of trade offs or opportunity cost, you're like, well, if you do this, you can't do that. All we do with budgeting is present you with that regularly, where you say I could go, I mean I hate giving exams because it makes it sound like I care. I don't really care about any examples at all. But you know, I could go to sushi or I could fund a part of Christmas for my kids. Well, that's a weird decision to be making in you know, in July or whatever. But that's the kind of thing that we want to do. There was a speaker that I just listened to last week. He said, awareness is the first point of decision. If you have someone that's unaware, an alcoholic that doesn't know they're an alcoholic, they can't stop that. There's, they're unaware. But as soon as you're aware you, that's your first point of decision. And we just try and always be surfacing that awareness. It's like, well, you can do that. Sure. But that will mean this, this and this, do you still want to do that? Yes, I do. Okay, go for it. No, I don't. Okay, we'll, we'll readjust. It's just awareness constantly bubbled up, and all rule one is, is just saying, If I give money here, I can't do it here. And I feel good about that, you know, or I need to change things around. So it that it's we just run that loop forever, and people make good financial decisions.

Jamila Souffrant 23:42

Right? Well, I'm happy you brought up the first rule, I do want to go through them. So rule one is give every dollar a job which you essentially said which I really like because and I will say like get bossy with your money like you are in control. You tell it what to do, because if not, it's kind of telling you what to do and you're working for it.

Jesse Mecham 23:58

Yeah.

Jamila Souffrant 23:59

So anything you want to add about the first rule before we go on?

Jesse Mecham 24:01

Well, one thing about the first rule is every other rule is just a function of that first rule. So all we're ever doing is giving dollars to jobs and getting bossy as you'd say, which I like. So, that second rule, we talked about embracing your true expenses. When I say list your expenses most people you know if I'm speaking or something, they'll they'll start to list just their monthly deal. Monthly this, monthly that. And you're like, okay, okay, and then they're kind of asking also, why don't I ever get ahead I make this much my income or my expenses of this much there's this gap. That should give me some room to play. But they they don't ever think about the larger less frequent expenses Christmas that I've already mentioned, property taxes. vacations are an expense, they sound fun, like they shouldn't be but they're totally an expense. Saving up for a new sofa or something, replacing something in your house, your car tires blow out. All those things are real true expenses. And so when I mentioned like, am I going to sushi or on my funding Christmas so I can get little Faye, a birthday present I'm not really always making that decision. But indirectly I am saying, you know, Julie are like we want to spend this much on the holidays. And we pay ourselves a monthly amount that goes into a YNAB category. And that Christmas account builds. And it's just like you have a Christmas bill every month. I mean, people probably still have a Christmas bill if they're paying off the prior year's cards. But aside from that, we have a faux Christmas bill, where we're just setting aside what that does. The beauty of thinking about larger, less frequent expenses, is you can grab kind of a bit of that future. You can pull it back to the present. And then when you're you know, a buddy causes is hey, do you want to go play golf? And you're like, okay, when I play golf with Bill, we also always go out to eat. He also likes to play a full 18 He always wants to do the cart anything and Bill's expensive. And so you have the this opportunity of like, well, do I go play golf with Bill? Or do I fund my car repair and the car repair hasn't even happened yet.

That's the weird thing. That's where people are saying, well, do I still feel good about this? What we're doing is we're removing the checking account balance as an information source. The checking account balance is like the biggest liar in personal finance. People look to it and say, Can I afford this? Can I afford that? It's like, Well, that doesn't tell you all it does it tell you how much is in your checking account? Nothing else. But if you can look at that big, hopefully, it's big, this big account balance. And you can say, well, I've got money for car repairs here. I've got money for this here. And Bill wants to go play golf. Yeah, I should do it. Or no, I shouldn't. But either way, you know, you've got that awareness. So rule two is just looking to the future and then using one to evaluate your priority.

Jamila Souffrant 26:41

Yeah, and I love that and to give like an like a concrete example because some people are listening to this and they are budgeting already. Some people are not or have an aversion to it. And so thinking about the bigger expenses and how you save up and plan for it, I just want to give an example. So if we are starting in January and Christmas 12 months away, you may have you spent 1200 for Christmas you look at your past how much you spent and you're you decide being proactive, I'm going to spend 1200. Then what Jesse's talking about what you can do with budgeting with YNAB is you can earmark every month that you're going to put away $100 for Christmas. So like a sinking fund is what typically it's called. But you can do that so that way you can by the time it gets there, right, you know that December 1 have 1200 dollars earmarked in your account. So also the thing that happens for people is like well, I have like two or three accounts between saving and checking, and the money's just all swimming around there. But what I think whether it's a spreadsheet or YNAB allows you to do is if you're tracking it right when you go to that you can see well it has $5,000 in my savings account, but my tracking system is telling me 1200 of that is for Christmas, so I know that already versus like it just like you said it just shows you that much so in you don't know where it's supposed to go you're earmarking every dollar to have a job.

Jesse Mecham 27:59

Yeah, absolutely. And the beauty of that is most people wouldn't have a savings account they know they should save. It's like, it's like, well, I should save. So they have a savings account, they put money in the savings account, and then the money comes out of the savings account. It's like this revolving door. And people are always wondering, like, why will my savings account go up? And it's just because you haven't been proactively assigning like, this money is for that specific thing. It's just been kind of this Grobe idea of savings because one should, and we want you to get more tactical and specific and say that $5,000 $1200 is for Christmas. Eight hundred is for car repairs, eventually, two grand is for the house because something will break. And you just allocate that all along the way. What happens is most YNABers they end up not really. They'll have an emergency fund, like in the traditional sense, three to six months of expenses don't maybe do that. But most of them notice that because they're so thoughtful about future expenses that are large and less less frequent. Even the kind where you can't estimate like a medical bill. I mean, what if someone has a COVID bill like, who in their right mind a year ago was like, oh, I'm going to save up for the pandemic expenses. I mean, no one's no one would do that. So there's an interesting thing here where we, we just try and think as much as we can ahead and then you start to pull back those expenses into your present and start to allocate money to them, you find that the emergency fund as it's traditionally known, doesn't really get touched. Because if your car tire blows out, that is not an emergency because those car tires are not built to be infinitely indestructible. If they are, if they are car tires like that, I would, I would buy them, definitely. But we like cars, break down roofs, need repairs, refrigerators break all that. We should never be surprised by the fact that something more out. So emergencies can kind of be set aside and it's this very intentional, like I'm saving for this. I'm saving for that. And it's what's fun is when you're weighing, should I buy this now or should I save for this thing later, it's so much easier to be saving for a specific thing. than it is just to say, oh, I should save, or I should go out and you know, eat sushi with my friends. Like when one is so weak and rudderless and the other one sounds very fun and present and very appealing. It's hard to stay on track but when you're when you're giving those dollars jobs, there's a lot more purpose there. I think that purpose gives us a lot of energy.

Jamila Souffrant 30:19

Yeah, and I like to say to it's like you're planning for the expected unexpected expenses.

Jesse Mecham 30:24

I love it. Yeah.

Jamila Souffrant 30:25

You know, they're gonna come up eventually, you know, you can run from it and be lucky that something did not break for a while, but it's going to happen eventually. So it's like, expected unexpected. Okay, rule three, what's rule three?

Jesse Mecham 30:37

Rule three is it's a weird that we have to make this a rule but it's we call it rolling with the punches. It's a you know, a boxing metaphor. You move your body in the direction of a punch so that you don't, you know, so you lessen the blow of that punch. It's really just change your budget as needed. You can liken it to a basketball coach you have like, let's say you've got this woman who has this amazing game plan and they're going to go out and just, they've studied film of the other team. And they've practiced all week long. And it's like, we're going to do this, this, you'll take her, you'll take her, and like, everything's going well, and all dialed in. And every one of those team members like, we know the plan. I know my assignment. I know my job. Thank you coach, and the coaches like you got this. And then as soon as the game starts, if that coach wasn't making adjustments immediately, we would be screaming and so upset. And so you just have to recognize you do your best you make the best game plan you can. And then you recognize that you will learn something new tomorrow. And you'll you may need to adjust as you go. The budget it's weird, because one of the aversions you use that word like some people have an aversion to budgeting, which is so true. One of the aversions they have is like I'm going to be restrained. I'm going to be in jail here essentially like it's like you're dieting like now okay, as soon as I start dieting and I won't eat and it's just that's not healthy for dieting. It's not healthy for budgeting. So, instead of thinking about it being a restraint, just think about it being a game plan, like, what will we do? What about when this happens? What will we do? And you want to be more proactive, it's not about spending less, it's about, well, one, it's about spending guiltless because that would be wonderful to be able to buy the jeans and, and not feel guilty three days later, would be awesome. But it's also it's about being proactive. Really, the whole thing is one big plan to spend even your savings for retirement. This is a bit of a tangent, but even retirement savings is still you acknowledging I'm going to spend that money, or at least I might give it to my kids. If you're kind I haven't decided yet if my kids will get any money, but it's all spending. It's just spend now spend later, but like let's let's let go of the idea that if you've set up a plan, that you also can't change it. When did you lose control of that? So I rant on reel three because it it frustrates me that people are like oh budgets so restrictive. I'm like you did it. it like that was yours, you know? So rant over rant over.

Jamila Souffrant 33:05

The thing about it is like, I don't want to say go wrong. I'm not a pessimist. I'm actually an optimist. So I'm not gonna say like, you know, no matter what you do, something will go wrong. But I'm a realist. And once people understand that, like, they don't expect to come in and get everything right now, you don't even come in and expect to get the process for budgeting right away. Correct. I think some people go on with that, too. And it's just like, it's a little complicated or hard for them. And then they give up because maybe they think it's not supposed to be so complicated. And it's really more as it's like, no with this, like, you know, the growth mindset of being adaptive. It's like things will go wrong, or things will happen. It's not that if they, if it will, or won't, it's more about how I respond to it. And so it's not that you expect bad things to happen. It's just that you're prepared that when things happen, you can adjust and it's not over. And so I think that's what people should also adjust or think about their money and spending plans and budgets.

Jesse Mecham 33:59

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, sometimes good things happen. You know, you have someone that says, hey, I'm going to be in town, you know, you haven't seen him in 10 years or like, let's go out. And you're like, shoot, I've got $5 to go out. That's not very cool of me. And so you move money around you say, well, I'm going to take money from this eventual car tire blowout category. And I'll catch up later because this is worth it. I mean, would anyone say oh, yeah, I saw my long lost uncle for the first time ever. What a horrible experience because I had to spend a little more on groceries when he came to visit and I don't think we'd worry about it. So a lot of the stuff is just, I like your idea of kind of saying like, it's not bad, it just, it just is are you alive, okay. Then things will happen, you know, and there are degrees of severity most definitely, especially, you know, as we talk about this now, like so many so many lousy things are happening. What are we supposed to do there? Are we supposed to adapt or just curl up? You know, and I think, I mean, if people are listening to your podcast, I think they're of the mindset that you adapt budgeting is changing. If you are not changing your budget, you're doing it wrong.

Jamila Souffrant 35:03

Okay, I love that you just like went back and just button that up. Say that one more time.

Jesse Mecham 35:07

If you aren't changing your budget, then you are doing it wrong.

Jamila Souffrant 35:10

Mm hmm.

Jesse Mecham 35:11

Also, you'd mentioned like it's hard to get started or you know, you may make mistakes. In our software. We actually built a feature years ago called the Fresh Start acknowledging that you'll be like, ah, this has been three weeks. I don't like this anymore. It's like, okay, go fresh start. Everything stays the same clean slate go again. It happens so often. We like one of our teachers. Yeah, it's one of our teachers Dave, he fresh starts every year. Nobody knows budgeting better than this guy. He teaches it every day all day long. And he still is like, I'm gonna change it a little bit. Mix it up some so you don't you're not admitting failure, you're actually succeeding in that instance. You know, starting fresh again.

Okay, the final rule we call it age, your money. And it's the idea that we want you to spend that dollar today that was earned 30 days ago. Said another way. If you earn money today, we wouldn't want you spending that money until at least 30 days from now, we're trying to walk people back from living right on that edge of the paycheck to paycheck cycle. Most of the time to follow this rule, you just have to do the other three really well, or pretty well. And rule four kind of is reached almost independently, you just follow those first three rules, you'll notice that you have more and more money in your bank account. And that it's taking you longer and longer more and more days to spend $1 that you've earned. And it's not that you're saying, oh, I'm going to go on this spending fast for a week or I'm not going to spend any money. I mean, those are all interesting for other reasons. But it really just breaking away from wait, you know, you've got this pile of bills waiting for money. And we want it we just flip it around. We want a pile of money, just waiting for a bill and then take it up another level and just auto pay the bills. And the budget will catch any mysteries that come through that way. So in that sense you're just sleeping better when you're step you know, you step back from that edge, in light of all the unemployment and layoffs and and shakiness of like structurally of this of our current economic situation, people that are living a good distance from that paycheck to paycheck cycle they had had and have a little more time to be like, oh man, this is new. What are we going to do here? If you're living, right and I and when I say you, I mean like 80% of people are living paycheck to paycheck, I'm not talking about some unfortunate minority. And that same thing also is readily apparent across income levels. So you have someone that's living below the poverty line, they actually know well more how to manage their money than someone that's can't hold two pennies together and they're making 200 grand and they are there are those examples all over the place. So I would be remiss to say oh, I'll teach that person that is getting by on 14 grand a year. No, they know how to get by on 14 grand a year. It's these other people that are just like, I gotta calm down like flippantly just you're like, come get it together and they're still living with the same stress, the same marital strife, the same mental overhead, that's totally unnecessary. So we just walk people back from that paycheck to paycheck cycle. Get rid of that stress, you'll always have stress, like you mentioned, like things go wrong. Life is stressful. If you have kids, welcome to stress, you know, but you should not be carrying this unnecessary stress just because you're living right on the paycheck to paycheck edge.

Jamila Souffrant 38:40

I think you bring up a good point about the current situation what so many people who are maybe unemployed or their their income has changed a bit. It's important now than ever to start if you have not already start budgeting, you know, it's not necessarily waiting until you have all the money and have all the clarity. It's it's now you know, I know and I always like to speak to I know there are different people that listen. And some people, their jobs have not changed, their income has not changed, they're fine. But for some people like this is a whole new world, maybe a spouse has been laid off, maybe it's just them. It's a lot, right? Like the working parents that don't have the luxury of go, like being able to stay home and then now have to be with their kids who need like, obviously, attention and care and teaching. That's a lot. And so, you know, I know that there's a lot going on in the world. It's not to say like, if you have not been thinking of this as a priority that something's wrong with you. It's more about I would love for this episode. And anything that I do here to help encourage people that despite the current situation, even even making one small step, even the awareness of it and saying, well, now I know about this thing I know about YNAB, you know, now, now I know about this, let me let me let me maybe go check it out something I wouldn't have done before. And try it. And even though maybe I'm not rolling in the dough because of things that are happening. Right now one day I will be because I have that outlook. And so how can I prepare myself? How can I at least survive the current situation so that I can thrive?

Jesse Mecham 40:09

Yeah. And there are a few common objections to the idea of budgeting. And one of them is someone just says, Well, I just don't make enough for it to be worth it. I mean, I hear that regularly, and think about who has who has the most money. So like, traditionally, I would think, oh, Bill Gates, like when I was a kid, Bill Gates was the guy that like Microsoft was growing, and he would remember someone saying, like, oh, if Bill Gates stopped making money, in order to stoop down and pick up $100, he would lose money. Like there was some weird, like, as a fifth grader or eighth grader, I remember where I was like, oh, my gosh, how is that possible? Yeah, like, so you think about someone that has, let's call it infinite money or darn close. If you were running the Gates Foundation, and you weren't running with some kind of a budget, and I mean, like, we will spend money to combat malaria. We will spend money to bring clean water I don't know all their, you know, their their mission. But if they weren't purposeful and intentional with all of that money, what a waste. So you might say, well they have so much money, why would they need to worry about exactly where things are going. But if you really want to maximize the Gates Foundation impact as my example, you would make sure you're very intention about this goes here and you can have lots of zeros tacked on the end. But this goes here, this goes here. This is our mission, if it were just scatterbrained and reactive where everyone that sent in a letter needing some money for some very worthy cause, and they're just like oh write a check or write a check, write a check. Think about the loss of impact that they could have if it without focused efforts. Now you bring that all the way down to someone that's maybe their you know, spouse was just laid off or they've been furloughed or work hours or cut. You still are using the budget to proactively I do want to say budget, you are basically saying I need to be proactive and maximize in my situation. I need to make some most of this. That's what a budget allows you to do just make the most of whatever situation you're in. And whether you're running the largest foundation in the world, or you're just running your own meager household. Same principle applies.

Jamila Souffrant 42:14

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I want to talk a little bit more about how you grew YNAB to when you talked about you just put the one in front $19.95 or $19.99. And then to now where it is today, so that was 2004. You first started and now how many like employees how big can you share that the company is and what you've been able to do?

Jesse Mecham 42:36

I think we're at 122 employees or around there. I used to make a joke like, I would say well we're at 40 employees but I really wish we were five or you know, it's about for about 35 more than I would be comfortable with. There's some discomfort for me and just thinking wow, this is a lot of people. You know a lot of lot of food being purchased, put on table In front of families that are using are depending on this business and its profitability to support them, but you do get used to it. You acclimate? And it's like, when you have one kid, you're like, oh my gosh, this is the craziest thing ever. This is insane. And then you have to and and it's definitely, I mean, anyone that says like they're scaling and having kids, I can speak to that because there is not there's no scaling, but you do acclimate. It's still hard, but you get used to it. And that's what happened with the business. I've been toying around with this idea of grow, you grow best at the rate that your profits allow. And so we we've never taken an investor. That's not true. I did. I did put money on a credit card back at the end of 2009 for a month, never to do that, again, that was scary. Beyond that little foray. We've never borrowed any money. And so we've always just had to reinvest profits in order to grow this thing. And it's It's strange, but I feel like my mental ability, I don't know, whatever it may be inherent natural ability or what I can learn by finding good sources of knowledge, all of that. It's nicely paced to be about the rate at which our profits can be reinvested anyway. So, if you were to say, hey, Jesse, I've got a $200 million for you to use to grow this thing. I wouldn't know where to start. But if you'd asked me 14 years ago, hey, Jesse, you'll need to spend, you know, I don't know what on marketing that would have also mortified me. So the numbers I'm comfortable with now would have scared me 10 years ago, and maybe the numbers 10 years from now, will not be as scary as they would be to me now. And I think it's all because profits and growing at that rate, allows you to just kind of slowly get used to things I'll bet you've experienced that even in your own endeavor what would have scared you three years ago is not nearly as scary.

Jamila Souffrant 45:02

Yeah, and the concept to of being so financially aware. So when I started this business, I actually didn't think this would be a business it was more just to share my journey. And then I was like, oh, well, I can do this as a business and kind of replace or do it instead of my corporate job. So starting, I was so super focused on saving and investing because we have the income to do that. Switching to this entrepreneurship mode, my husband's a teacher. So it's a big change and how we handle money are it changed our trajectory to financial independence. We're still working towards it, but it's totally different now as entrepreneur because now money that I'm bringing into the business it's how do I reinvest it back into brought back my time because as you know, busy mom, that's important, but then also, how do I consciously I don't want to sell myself short to like, I want to eventually get paid well, for what I'm doing, at what points do you pay yourself so you know, you could I can reach and my family can reach our own personal financial goals or invest back into the business because that dollar, I could have took the dollar or I sent it to the business to take the dollar. But that dollar in the business can grow way faster, possibly. So I think that, um, decision comes in for a lot of people with what to do, like take the money or reinvest.

Jesse Mecham 46:17

I had I have I mean, my personal experience was 2004. We start 2006 we had launched our standalone version. So back in 2005, it was housing, right like everyone was buying houses, you got it. You had to buy a house. It's like, oh my gosh, we'll never be able to buy a house again. If we don't buy a house now. And Julie and I were going to graduate and I was at an internship. And we were down in Phoenix, Arizona, and we were thinking maybe we buy a house and just let it sit for a year. That was the frenzied feeling of the home situation back then. Thank goodness we didn't we bought high later but whatever. So at least we live there. But the the instance where we I told you I said we're going to be setting aside money. For a house down payment because everybody's doing houses, then I meet Taylor, who's my business partner and CTO. And this was early 2006. And he said, hey, I can build this spreadsheet to make it even better and I said, no, let's just build separate software for it, forget the spreadsheet, and they said I can do that. So I go to Julie and I say hey, Julie, you know that house downpayment that we've been funneling YNAB money profits, purely just into that downpayment category getting ready to buy the house, I'll become a CPA. We're good to go. And I said that we're not going to use it for the house down payment, maybe what do you think about this idea? And she she said, what do you feel good about this guy Taylor. I'd only ever talked to him on the phone. You know, they didn't have video calling back then or anything. He was down in Texas. And I said I feel good about it. So Taylor agreed to the project and we we kind of rated our our house fund for that. Then end of 2006 that software launches, and within days, I had gone payback on the entire amount. It's like 20, something 30 or 22 grand, something like that. And so I thought, oh, this is, you know, there's the payback. That's the allure of the business, always being able to be far more productive 20 grand into a house in 2005, I would have been awful, right? But 20 grand in my business was really, really good. But I just kept feeding the business. So 2009 we actually fed the business more than it had made. I took from our emergency fund. We were pushing to the very end of the year, we needed to get our third version out. That was where I borrowed about 20 grand on a credit card that we launched at the end of 2009. I paid back the credit card. And again, it was a good move. I was like, man, all that stress, it was worth it. The business was able to take $1 and make three or whatever it was. I finally took a salary and YNAB. I think it was 2010.

So we're six years in where it was like oh, I think I can steadily pay us from this, because the business, and you'd said it possibly can. And that's good to note, the business could possibly be far more productive with that dollar than you could. I mean, do you really want to go to Disneyland for 1600 dollars, if that could become 3000 pretty easily. And you keep doing that math and it becomes pretty, pretty attractive. So we did the same thing again. 2012 we launched another version. And then 2016 we launched the version we're at now, release the the be one of that. And the whole time. I you know, Julie's like how's the business doing? She's so busy with running every other part of our life. That, you know, when I talk to her about the business, it's pretty high level, I need her feedback on stuff. She'll get to the essence of things very quickly. She's a good, she's such a good advisor, but she said one thing one time that really struck me, I said the business is doing great. And she goes well, that'd be news to me. And I'm like, what do you what do you mean by that? She's like it doesn't affect us at all if whether the business does a lot or a little we live on this amount and in 2015 I cut our salary in half so that we could start saving money for this business transition. So all she had ever seen from the business was okay let me get this straight business is doing great but we rated the down the down payment for the house. Okay businesses doing great we cut our salary in half like when when's this gonna pay off and finally, I I read Mike Michalowicz's book Profit First. And he makes a good case for pay yourself a little bit off the top. So we started doing that a few years ago and that has been great. I had Mike on the podcast a while ago and he's a great guy to have on and we chat. I think we're in new in. I was out in Manhattan for a bit and we met up there and chatted and it's very YNAB. So what he's what he talks about, but it's just like pay yourself a little so when you do really well enjoy it. And that was a long that was kind of our whole thing like six years until a salary continually Just reinvesting all the chips back on the table. And I don't know if I would do it the same way again. Totally. I think it's been nice these last few years to recognize if sales go up, I'll be able to take a little off the table. But everyone's got to kind of fill that out on their own. I'm not a big I'm not a gunslinger. I'm not like a swashbuckling entrepreneur type, like I'm, I'm the farmer, you know, it's like you just kind of work slowly work the field, plant another row, that kind of thing.

Jamila Souffrant 51:26

And I think I love that you said that it's like depends on your personality. I this is like my second full time year of entrepreneurship. And I did pay myself the first time from my like owners, because I also used to profit versus them so I have the money.

Jesse Mecham 51:42

Yeah, like distribution.

Jamila Souffrant 51:44

Yeah, so I first time, July, July's I, when I paid myself since about a year and a half of actually almost two years jumping into this. And even still, I'm so cautious about it because my biggest thing is when I took on this responsibility to because my income was more than half of our household income, so when I took on the risk of I'm going to, like, leave my job and my job had the most potential, right for the highest to earn the highest in our household. So when I did that, my biggest thing was, you know, I don't want to or lifestyle change too much. And I don't want Journey to Launch to ever take away from our savings. I mean, we saved up for me to do this. So I just don't want it to be a drag where now it's like the cost of running it and being here is like taking away from like, the money we already kind of don't have. So I think it's interesting because it depends on your personality. I'm definitely a cautious person, for anyone listening as an entrepreneur or thinking about it cuz that's the other thing that we talked about financial independence here on Journey to Launch. And part of that includes potentially being an entrepreneur, for everyone. I always say that listen, if you have a job you love, continue to continue to collect those checks. And you know that health care, but if you have a desire, something burning inside of you, you want to build a create something change the world or maybe just change your circle, whatever that means. For you, it's important to also not only think about your personal budget, but I found that transitioning into managing a business budget, like profit first system that was like a whole new realm even though it's similar. So I want people to also pay attention to that. It's like there's a personal budget, but there's also a way you run your business budget. That's important.

Jesse Mecham 53:18

Yeah, yeah, running your business on YNAB. I started doing that in 2009, where I was very intentional about the business money, the business checking account was far bigger than my personal account, obviously. And I was so risk averse that it was like we should hire an engineer, we really should hire an engineer. And I would just look at the pile of money and be like, I don't know if I feel good about it, you know. And when I finally started giving every dollar a job with the business money, it started to look like Jesse you fool. You would be insane not to hire someone and, and that helped get me out of my risk aversion. And recognize that it was almost flipped around. I was almost, I mean, I was being almost stupid with how tight fists I was with those dollars, instead of saying we could get more done, and this is good ROI. So that, yeah, it there's very little different about running a business budget, but for some reason people, they think like, oh, I can run my personal household, but I can't run my business will just run the business, like your personal household be stingy a little bit. But also, there's a level of strategicness that you can adapt to your business budget where personally you're like, well, we'll spend this much on groceries and story. Business it's like, we'll spend this much on marketing, what will that bring? And so that's the business aspect. But having a business with finite resources, that's a real thing. Household finite resources. That's a real thing. I also would say like, I feel like entrepreneurial stuff for entrepreneurs gets a little bit romanticized. Like, it's not, you know, it's not that you just you're doing a job, it's, it's so much grind, it's so much just grind grind, grind, you know? That's it's work. It's just work. So it's another form of work. If you got a little bit of ADD, I think it suits people well in that way, because there's lots of different hats to wear. I lose interest in things pretty quickly. So the the entrepreneurial stuff is suited me. But you can find that in lots of different jobs too. I don't want people to walk away like, Oh, I can't believe I've never wanted to be an entrepreneur Should I want to? It's like, No, no, don't worry about it.

Jamila Souffrant 55:25

No, no, I think that's great. I love this quote, where it's like entrepreneurship is the only place where you'll give up maybe the 40-50 Hour Workweek for the hundred hour workweek because it's like, non stop.

Jesse Mecham 55:36

Yeah, and even if like my work hours are pretty reasonable now, they have not always been that way. But might you know, mentally though, you're never you never check out. It's just it's always there. It's just kind of a low hum. So yeah, if you love what you do, keep doing it. And leave it at that, you know, just be content, just practice. That's what I want to learn. I want to learn how to just be content content, just, just know I'm happy, happy the way things are.

Jamila Souffrant 56:03

Right. Because always something else on the other side that seems more appealing, but you can get there and say, oh, wait, there's the other side to that, too. Okay, so Jesse, I would probably just wrap up and say like for anyone right now listening who's like, okay, they may already be a YNAB user, because I've been yapping about it all month and previously, but if they're not, and they're just like, what, you know, why should I give this a try? What's your last kind of thing for people to be like? Okay, I'll do this. Like, what? What's your last charge to people about trying YNAB?

Jesse Mecham 56:31

Yeah, so everyone's used to like video conferencing now and all this weird stuff with zoom and everything. So we've been we were doing remote well, before it was mandated. So the best thing someone could do is they could say, I'm going to give Jesse 25 minutes of my time, we'll actually we'll give one of our teachers 25 minutes of your time and take one of the workshops. It's free. And you'll just see, you'll see the four rules, how we think about money, and then you'll see it applied in the software and there isn't three seconds in those workshops that isn't just time well spent, they're dialed in, we do them probably do 150 a week. So they're live, you can ask questions of the teacher. But that to me is even before you do like the 34 day free trial or whatever, take the workshop first and kind of see how we're coming at this. Because if you do decide to give the trial a shot, it will make your experience far more it'll things will make more sense otherwise. So I'd say go with the free workshop. And then one, they'll ask us to this pitch, if you're hitting your financial goals, and like, you just listen to your podcast because you like to get a good little pat on the back then you just go like don't don't change things for the sake of change. That would be that'd be a step backward.

Jamila Souffrant 57:47

I actually love that you said that like if it's working and you truly know what's working fine, but if you know something's off, something's missing then give it a try. So check it out. Jesse, thank you so much. I will say I'm so if you want to do the 34 day free day trial you can go to youneedabudget.com/journey. And this was amazing. Thanks for basically educating us on budgeting, but then also business. I'm running a business. I thought that was amazing. Hopefully you guys got a lot from that.

Jesse Mecham 58:14

Thanks, Jamila.

Jamila Souffrant 58:19

Okay, I really hope you enjoyed that conversation. You know, it's one of the first times I believe I've had a sponsor slash company, on the podcast, like a person representing a company. And I really wanted to make sure that this wasn't just like a big pitch, you know, like a big, all about this company, right? Like, I really wanted to make it an interview, where you could learn something from it no matter what you chose, right? Whether you choose to use YNAB or not. I think the basis of this is about getting to your financial goals and dreams and making the journey really all about you. It's going to be something that only you can travel. So what are the tools that you need and I love that YNAB and what Jesse has done like he really breaks down in the interview the four rules as a basis for wanting to get to your goals using a budget and then the entrepreneurship journey, which you know, by now I'm just I love hearing stories like that. I can relate to it so much. And it's people like that, who are able to create something from nothing and have a vision to like, follow through, like, super inspiring. So I really hope you got a lot from that.

Again, if you want to try out YNAB go to youneedabudget.com/journey to give it a try. Free 34 day trial, no credit card required.

Don't forget if you want the episode show notes to get any of the links mentioned in this episode, go to journeytolaunch.com or click the description wherever you're listening to this to get the link to the show notes. And if you want that free jumpstart guide to help you on your financial freedom journey text launch to 33777 text launch to 33777 to get your free guide today or go to journeytolaunch.com/jumpstart.

If you want to support me and the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen. Whether that's Apple podcasts, that purple app on your phone, your Android device, YouTube, Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen, just subscribe so you're not missing an episode. And if you're happening to listen to this and Apple podcasts, rate review and subscribe there I appreciate and read every single review. Number two, follow me on my social media accounts. I'm @journeytolaunch on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And I love love love interacting with journeyers there. Three, support and checkout the sponsors of this show if you hear something that interests you, sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here. So show them some love for supporting your girl. Four and last but not least, share this episode this podcast with a friend or family member or co worker so that we can spread the message of Journey to Launch. Alright, that's it. Until next week, keep on journeying journeyers.

Jamila Souffrant 0:00

You're listening to the Journey to Launch Podcast: Lessons On Achieving Your Life and Money Goals From Three Years of Podcasting Plus Journeyer Voicemail.

Recording 0:12

Welcome to the journey to launch podcast with your host Jamila Souffrant. As a money expert who walks her talk, she helps brave journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest, and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in five, four, three, two, one.

Jamila Souffrant 0:39

Okay, hey, hey, hey, journeyers. We are back with another special episode. You know, we've been celebrating all month long. It's the three year anniversary month of the podcast but this episode is going to be pretty special. Yeah, yeah, you say that every time Jamila but it is because guess what you are going to hear from Journey to Launch Podcast listeners, journeyers who are phoning in and celebrating the three year anniversary with me and with you. So you'll get to hear maybe your voice if you sent in your voice note on the podcast.

But before we hop into that, I do want to talk about just some overall lessons I've learned since having the podcast for three years that I know will apply or can apply to wherever you are on your financial journey, or your career journey. Before we do get into the episode, I want to talk about today's sponsor who has been holding us down all month long. You Need A Budget, also known as YNAB. Now you know that I'm obsessed with financial freedom and independence, but I call it the gift and the curse. It's the gift because you know what's possible for you, and that it's an option. But the curse because once you find out about it, it feels like it's going to take forever to reach your goals. I get it. That's how I felt when I really found out what this was all about. Now you can begin to become impatient or discouraged with the length of time it takes to reach your bigger goals. I know that firsthand, because when I did discover by financial independence, I was so excited. But then when I realized how long it will take me, I thought the process would take forever. And I didn't want to have to wait years and years before I experienced more time, freedom and happiness. I still wanted to enjoy life and spend on the things that I valued, like going out to eat with family and friends. I didn't want to approach it with this all or nothing strategy, where I couldn't spend any money again. So that's why budgeting and using YNAB changed the game for me because it allowed me to juggle my longer term goals and my immediate fun and happiness needs. So yes, the journey to financial freedom and independence takes time. But it doesn't mean you can't enjoy life, while paying off debt and saving for that important purchase. Now, that's why I really believe in today's sponsor, You Need A Budget. I use them personally still to this day. But you can make fully informed current spending decisions based on your immediate needs and future obligations. YNAB gives you space to roll with the punches. It's the best thing that you can do for your money and because you don't have to always be 100% right you don't have to be successful and perfect with your budget 100% of the time, you just have to commit to it. Commit to the process and the planning. So use YNAB's proven four rule method to zero in, stay focused, and give every dollar a job so that your money is working hard for you and you can spend it on things that matter the most. I recommend checking out You Need A Budget so that you can try it for free for 34 days no credit card required you can go to YouNeedABudget.com/journey once again go to YouNeedABudget.com/journey.

Okay, now before we hop into the content of the episode, I just got to let you know doors to The Money Launch Club, that's the membership community for journeyers just like you who listen to the podcast, who want to reach financial freedom and independence but need more. You need more support. You need more tools, you need more community. This membership is for you. It's an online membership so you connect with people online, you get the resources online. But really, it's the best way to stay committed to your journey. And so doors to The Money Launch Club are currently open. They're closing tomorrow if you're listening to this in real time on July 23, I only really intend to open up doors The Money Launch Club about twice a year. So if you are considering it, if you've been on the fence, if you've been thinking about joining, now's your time, go to moneylaunchclub.com become a master of your money, pay off your debt faster, increase your savings, get the support you need to reach your financial goals.

Now, let me hop into just some things that I've learned on my path for the past three years that I hope can help you and then we're going to get into the voicemail from journeyers and listeners. So one I want to talk about consistency and persistency. I always say that I'm consistent and persistent AF because since I launched the podcast three years ago, I put out a podcast episode, every single Wednesday, sometimes I even put out bonus episodes. And I found that the growth that I've seen with Journey to Launch, like the brand and who I am was really the podcast, the podcast has been my main source of showing the world, what I can do, who I am, and helping people. And with that, I made a commitment when I started that I was going to put an episode out. Now I gotta say, that doesn't mean I'm going to do that all the time. I've been toying with taking some breaks, here and there, doing some replay episodes, but I want to just impress upon you right now, if you're listening, that if you have a goal, whether it is maybe side hustle related or career related or money related, that you're not going to get every step of the process right all the time. Lord knows I don't get everything right with this podcast all the time. I've improved so much and starting and I have a long way to go. You know, there's a gap between what we currently have and want and what we foresee in the future, right?

There's always a gap between where you stand and where you want to be. Now, if you wait until everything's perfect before you take action to get to the ultimate place, you'll never move. And so you only learn what you need to change what you need to do by taking movement. And so for me, being consistent no matter what being persistent, has helped me all these years. So I want to encourage you that consistency and persistency is the thing. Don't aim for perfect. Just aim to get it done. And trust me as you go, whether it's with your budget, whether it's with negotiating a salary, whether it is with navigating personal relationships, whatever, you won't know until you speak up until you try something and then you can adjust, but you got to be consistent and persistent. So that's my like kind of tip one about making it three years in podcasting and Journey to Launch. Number two, I would say don't be afraid to pivot, change your mind, and roll with the punches. Listen, you can change your mind. I talked about this a couple episodes ago, it's okay. If you had goals that change. Look, I started Journey to Launch in terms of like as a blog and then the podcast and I had these goals to aggressively reach financial independence in a short timeframe. And I've adjusted that, you know, now I have a more balanced approach if it takes me longer, but I'm happier because of it; that's fine with me. And so you can change your mind maybe you did start saying you wanted to quit your job and retire early. And as you gotten on the journey, you realize things about yourself, you thought, okay, this maybe entrepreneurship isn't for me. I want to do something different. Maybe I just want to take a sabbatical or a break. You can change your mind and if you feel like A today and you change it to B tomorrow, it's okay. And then if you change it to C the next week, that's okay too.

I think so many people change their minds, but they are afraid to share that their mind are changed and they stay committed to an outdated thought process that doesn't serve them anymore. And it's okay to understand that you'll make mistakes, right? Like it's okay, you don't have it all figured out. So how can you know your ultimate path if you've never gotten there, right. So a lot of this is going to take calibration and trying things and pivoting and going down different roads that may lead to dead ends, that's okay, you turn around and you go down the next road. So that's what I say don't be afraid to pivot and change your mind. roll with the punches. There are things that I have thought maybe in the beginning that I maybe even said on this podcast, where I don't necessarily feel the same way anymore. But I just want you to be flexible with yourself here like this is life. We only get one. One shot of this and it doesn't have to be perfect. We are all figuring this out. So roll with the punches just like with you know your spending and your budget and your money. There are things outside of your control, and so you have to roll with the changes. And my third thing kind of just reflections. And what I've learned after doing the podcast for three years is I actually put this on my Instagram a few weeks ago. And it's when I first heard it, I did hear it on another podcast. I forgot the person who said it. But this is not my quote, but it just spoke to me so much. This is what it is. Speak what you seek until you've seen what you say. Let me say that, again. Speak what you seek until you've seen what you say.

That is such a powerful statement to me, and I hope for you. If it touched you the way it touched me the first time I heard it, is that it means that maybe things are not the way you want them to be just yet, but it doesn't mean you need to dwell in the negativity or the realities honestly of your situation. Anyone I've known even myself, if it was trying to get somewhere else from where I currently am is because I saw it. I saw the vision and I spoke to that vision. I spoke to people who also believed in that vision or already were at that vision. So I spoke it into existence, I thought it into existence, I felt it into existence. And I can't tell you that when I started this podcast, I knew that I'd you know, reach a 1.7 million downloads and have all these accolades for it. I had a feeling honestly because I know once I get committed to something how, I am. But as I started to go, I put myself in that room that I could be as big as Tim Ferriss. Why not? Oprah can call me for like a show. Why not? This is the way you think, if you think anything different meaning and now I want to make sure it doesn't mean that you can't have doubts. I have doubts all the time. I have moments where I'm just like, what are you doing? This is not gonna work. Why did you quit your job like I have those moments. But what overrides those moments every time is the overall arching default, like my default is always looking at what's working, looking at what's possible, and then going towards that. And so speak what you seek until you've seen what you say, I'm telling you, changing your mindset and the realities of the world. If you don't like what you're focusing on, focus on something else, see something else is what has helped me to this day. And I will continue to implement that. And it doesn't mean again, you're going to get it perfect each day. You know, it's not like every day you wake up, you're going to be Buddha. And everything's great and positive. No, not saying that. But have that be your default that your override, right, that computer kind of we all have a computer system, your default is the more the more positive way to look and deal with things. Alright, so those are my like three little reflections about having the podcast, getting it to where it's been over the past three years.

But now I want to get to why you've come while you're listening is that I wanted to share voices of journeyers just like yourself. A few episodes ago, I asked for you guys to send in your voice notes to help me celebrate the anniversary. And so that's what we're going to do now. And I did listen to everyone. I do believe I got most of them if I didn't listen, trust me, I listened to every single one. I couldn't include everything. But here are the ones I want you to hear. Thank you in advance everyone, again for listening to the show, supporting the show, telling a friend to tell a friend, I appreciate it so much. Okay. Now let's get into the first call from Chrishaun. Chrishaun says she's basically since listening to the podcast, she has a better money mindset and that you need to do the hard work. So let's listen to what Chrishaun has to say.

Chrishaun 12:41

Hi, Jamila. My name is Chrishaun Denae and I'm from Atlanta, Georgia. First I want to say congratulations on reaching your three year podcast anniversary. I'm so proud of you and you're such an inspiration to our community. Other than learning so much about personal finance and how to be financially independent, your show and your story. has inspired me to also tell my story to the world by starting a blog. You've inspired me to accept no excuses, throw out the fear and just do it. You're also one of the first money shows that I've benched all of 2018. And since 2018, I've developed a better money mindset. Help my friends and family do the same and paid off more than $77,000 of debt. My money tip for your journeyers is to do the hard work. Believe in yourself the entire time. Don't take your eye off the goal and make it fun. Thank you Jamila so much for being a part of my debt free story. Keep on journeying Jamila.

Jamila Souffrant 13:37

All right. Thank you, Chrishaun. That was awesome. All right. Next caller is Daisy. This one when I heard it. Oh my gosh, I just I got a little emotional. Daisy. I'm just gonna let you hear it. Listen to Daisy.

Daisy 13:54

Hello Jamila, my name is Daisy Lee, I'm new at this but your information has inspired me. And even though I am in my 60s, it's helping me understand finances. Daisy Lee. Thank you.

Jamila Souffrant 14:12

Okay, did you hear that? It's never too late to start Daisy is turning 62. It's never too late to start. And so I hope that is encouragement for anyone who listens and feels like they've started late. Or maybe you have someone in your life that you want to encourage, let them listen to this episode and to Daisy's note, it's never too late to start. Okay, next up is Miriam.

Miriam 14:35

Hi, Jamila. This is Miriam from Cleveland, Ohio. Since starting to listen to the Journey to Launch podcast, I have invested over $20,000 in various investment accounts, including the 457. I've paid off my car. I'm about to get my student loans forgiven as soon as I get signatures on them. And I'm actually changing careers because I was so nervous before and thought I was going to be stuck in a job I hated forever. My tip for other journeyers would be to start investing small until you get comfortable. I started with just $100 and watched it for a while until I started investing more. And now I have a net worth of almost $90,000 Thanks for everything you do. Bye.

Jamila Souffrant 15:17

Okay, Miriam, thank you so much. And I love your tip for journeyers start small, even if it's $100 $10 start small build that habit. Great tip, Miriam. Thank you. All right, next up is Kenniqua. Kenniqua.

Kenniqua 15:34

Hi, my name is Kenniqua Jones and I'm located in Hampton, Virginia. And I just wanted to just leave this voicemail here for you just to let you know how much I appreciate everything that you do with your podcast. I've been listening to your podcast as a journeyer for about a year and a half. And prior to listening to your podcast, I was terrible with money. I could not save any money and this is kind of like the story of my life. That I couldn't save any type of money. Money was just running through my hands. I was living paycheck to paycheck. So listening to your podcast number one helped me as a business owner, myself an entrepreneur, it actually gave me ideas to kind of expand my business and be able to do more things in my business, to be able to generate more income, but then also two it gave me the money mindset to not only be able to make more money, but to also be able to save money. So I was able to reach a goal of mine, which was really be able to save $11,000 in six months, so even through the pandemic, just doing and using a lot of the tools that you provided, I was able to go through and save $11,000 and this pandemic in the first six months. So again, I appreciate everything that you do keep doing it. I'm doing what you're doing your podcast, I tune in every single Wednesday and I appreciate you so much. Thank you.

Jamila Souffrant 16:48

Love that. Thank you Kenniqua. Yes, there is hope for everyone. And even if you feel that you are terrible with money, which by the way, no one is terrible with money, but if you feel that way, it's not true, but you can make changes. Great job and saving all that money. Next up we have Adrean.

Adrean 17:06

Hi Jamila. I'm Adrean from Northern Virginia. But like you I'm also first generation from Jamaica. After a few episodes, I was hooked. I enjoy your personal finance lessons, guests, and focus on other areas that influence our ability to reach our financial goals like habits and mindset. I introduced your podcast to my boyfriend and now it's one of the tools we use to discuss finances together. It's helped us talk honestly about finances and life goals. As we grow together, I'm more secure in our ability to have these conversations before we make further steps together. So thank you, thank you for providing this vehicle and I hope your words continue to bring more couples closer together.

Jamila Souffrant 17:49

Okay, Adrean, fellow Jamaican, hey, what what? I love how you talked about getting your partner on board. That's one of the things that has helped me immensely and it's something I always recommend. If you do have a partner, get them on board if you can. Next up we have Benita.

Benita 18:06

Hello, my name is Benita Gordon. I am here in Florida even though I'm from Virginia, and I wanted to say happy anniversary, but I also wanted to say to you, thank you. I found your podcast as I was seeking podcasts that I could listen to, for women of color about financial freedom, and eliminating debt. And the moment I found your podcast, I immediately listened to the current one and went back and for the rest of the week. Listened to all the ones previous though I think I found you maybe in your after your first year. So I've been listening now for about two years. I just wanted to say that I have shared your podcast I will continue to share your podcasts and my sister circles, your resources, your stories, the people that you interview on a podcast, just the plethora of knowledge and understanding and transparency. Priceless and I appreciate it. I also wanted to let you know that I have taken with me from your podcasts all the time, that before I can be on fire, I have to make sure that I do what I need to do for myself. I can't be on fire for anyone else but me. So I'm going to pay down my debt. I'm going to invest, I'm going to save. I'm going to be strategic about my profession, my career and we're getting paid what I am worth. Thank you happy anniversary and I'm excited about what you're going to bring to us moving forward and how you're going to help us.

Jamila Souffrant 19:36

Alright, I just love how Benita is like listen, I'm going to fill up my tank first before I can gas up anyone else's tank. Yes, yes, we need to love that. Love that. All right now we have Yuri from Sydney from Down Under.

Yuri 19:51

Hi, happy three years to the Journey to Launch Podcast, and to Jamila. Congratulations. My name is Yuri from Sydney, Australia. Yeah, and the biggest thing I have gained after listening to the Journey to Launch Podcast is motivation and confidence to begin my journey to financial freedom. All the guest speakers seem to be really amazing, including Jamila. And I really enjoy the advice that they give out. And although I'm listening from Down Under, I still find the information really relevant. So thank you. I've managed to stick to a budget plan which allows me to save 55% of my income. And I also finally found the courage to invest in index funds, which I intend to use towards my early retirement. So thank you so much to Jamila for all the advice through the podcast. My money tip for all the journeyers out there is to treat your money with respect and your money will respect you back, track your money spending habits and make it a point to be intentional with each dollar that you earn. Because after all, we worked so hard for it. Big thanks to Jamila for creating such a fun, easy to understand and relatable podcast and I just want to say keep on journeying journeyers. Thank you.

Jamila Souffrant 21:03

Thanks, Yuri for that. It's always amazing when I hear that people are listening from all over the globe just shows you that, you know, location does not matter even, you know, different currencies and the way that our countries look at investing, like the goal is the same to have freedom. So congrats on saving all that money to That's amazing. Next up is Dr. Kimmy who's also a podcaster. I was on her podcast Productive on Purpose. Let's hear what Dr. Kimmy has to say.

Dr. Kimmy 21:32

Hey, Jamila it's Dr. Kimmy, I am so happy for you. I found your podcast about three years ago and it was a really dark time in my life, because my mother had just passed away and I was in a bit of a tailspin. But you know, I was searching and looking for just a new way to get a hold of my life and I found your podcast and ever since then, I've been journeyer so thank you for your fresh approach to personal finance. What I really love about what you do is that you don't just focus on, you know, budgeting and things like that you really teach us that we can monetize ourselves, leverage our knowledge and our expertise in order to widen the gap and increase our income. So because of you, I started my own podcast because of you, and your inspiration. I monetize that podcast rather quickly. And I just thank you for showing up each and every week for your community, every single week that I show up for my community. I think about you and the weeks that I feel like I want to kind of slip off or slack off. I remember that you're there every single Wednesday for us. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all that you've done. And congratulations on making it to this point.

Jamila Souffrant 22:54

Thanks so much, Dr. Kimmy that was too sweet. Love it. Love it. All right, and then the last voicemail is from Shardyn who is also a Money Launch Club member. Let's hear from Shardyn.

Shardyn 23:07

Hey Jamila, it's Shardyn from Denver, Colorado this past year listening to the podcast and being a member of the Money Launch Club has given me so much and it's added a ton of value to my life. Because of the resources that you've given us through the Launch Club. In the podcast, I've paid off over $8800 worth of debt and saved over $1500. And while those numbers don't seem like a lot, it's important to put it in some context, I was making less than $50,000 a year, and I was living in a downtown apartment in a moderately expensive city to live in. So being able to do that while my rent was 1800 dollars a month is just super awesome to me. Your community has given me so much and it has taught me a ton. And it's been pretty invaluable and I'm really excited to have another year with you and the podcast in the Launch Club.

Jamila Souffrant 23:56

Thank you so much Shardyn and for sharing for being a listener of the podcast and a Money Launch Club member making such great strides and I love how she just pointed out that even though she's not making you know, six figures she's able to make progress to her money goals. Amazing. Okay, thank you so much everyone who submitted a voice note, voicemail, like I said, I'm sorry if I couldn't get to play yours, but trust me, I listened to every one of them. And even if you didn't send anything in, I know you're listening. And I appreciate it. I appreciate you 100% once again, doors so the Money Launch Club they are open so if you are interested in joining us into deepening our relationship, the deepening your journey to financial freedom and independence to get the tools and support that you want and need. doors are open until July 23. I'm only opening doors at this point I'm thinking only twice a year. So this is your chance to join if you are on the fence, go to moneylaunchclub.com and I'm gonna just say this, even if you know you don't become a member like you know that I'm for you. The podcast, I've committed to that being the way that I connect and help people and you specifically journeyers that no matter what you decide the fact that you just listened to this episode, this podcast and you come back every week, and you're trying your best, you are a tried and true journeyer no matter what. But of course, if you want to join us in the Money Launch Club, come on, but honestly, I'm just happy that you're here with me on this journey, like I am. Every week I'm happy. So, like always, until next week, keep on journeying journeyers.

Don't forget if you want the episode show notes. To get any of the links mentioned in this episode, go to journeytolaunch.com or click the description wherever you're listening to this to get the link to the show notes. And if you want that free Jumpstart Guide to help you on your financial freedom journey, text launch to 33777 text launch to 33777 to get your free guide today or go to journeytolaunch.com/jumpstart if you want to support me and the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen. Whether that's Apple podcasts, that purple app on your phone, your Android device, YouTube, Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen, just subscribe so you're not missing an episode. And if you're happening to listen to this and Apple podcasts, rate review and subscribe there I appreciate and read every single review. Number two, follow me on my social media accounts. I'm @journeytolaunch on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And I love love love interacting with journeyers there. Three, support and checkout the sponsors of this show if you hear something that interests you, sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here. So show them some love for supporting your girl. Four and last but not least, share this episode this podcast with a friend or family member or co worker so that we can spread the message of Journey to Launch. Alright, that's it. Until next week, keep on journeying journeyers.

Jamila Souffrant 0:00

You're listening to the Journey to Launch Podcast. The Journey to Financial Liberation, Woke Entrepreneurship, and Social Justice with Ysanet Batista.

Recording 0:13

Welcome to the journey to launch podcast with your host Jamila Souffrant. As a money expert who walks her talk, she helps brave journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest, and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in five, four, three, two, one.

Jamila Souffrant 0:40

Okay, journeyers, it's a celebration. If you're caught up on the podcast, maybe you're just new to the podcast hello, your journey or now then you know, or maybe you don't that it is the anniversary month of the podcast so it's July 2020. It marks the three year anniversary month since we started the show and so helps us ring this special I'm really excited to talk a little bit more about today's sponsor of the podcast who has been sponsoring us all month, You Need a Budget, also known as YNAB. Now I know at first, the word budget seems to be restrictive. But in fact, when you use a budget the right way, you will experience a level of freedom you've never had before with your money. That's what happened when I started to use YNAB to budget years ago, I used to feel guilty when I spent money and I didn't really understand how my everyday purchases or spending habits impacted my long term goals. But once I discovered that financial independence was a thing and something I could pursue, I just wanted to figure out how I could do that I wanted to figure out how we can save and invest more of our income, while still living a happy life right now. So finally tracking and seeing what was coming in our income and what was going out our expenses allowed us to adjust our spending in a way that balanced our desire to spend in the now but also our desire to accomplish that our long term goals. So now with my budget, I have much more control and the guilt of not knowing how I'm doing is gone. Every month, my husband and I proactively decide how we're going to spend our money using the budget. And that's why we use wine app to keep us accountable. And I think you should get YNAB try. Wine app has a proven four rule method that allows you to zero in, stay focused, and give every dollar a job so that your money is working hard for you. And you can spend it on things that matter the most. Budgeting is not restrictive, you won't be spending less you will be spending right? I highly recommend you check out you need a budget also known as wine app, give it a try for free 34 days no credit card required by going to youneedabudget.com/journey. Now for this week's episode of the podcast. It's a special one they all are very special. But it's really special because I get to interview a journeyer just like yourself, someone in the middle of their financial freedom journey making progress and I've always found that when I've done it interviews like these where I talk to people just like you in the middle of it, it resonates more, because you get to hear from someone who's maybe a couple steps ahead of you, who's still figuring it out. So Ysanet Batista is a Dominican American raised in between Harlem, New York and the Dominican Republic. She has a love for her culture, social justice and cooking which led her to start her own food cooperation business called Woke Foods. And it explores Dominican based plant cuisine, being a business owner and community activists and made her more aware about money and the systems that created it and run it. By the way, Ysanet is also a member of the Money Launch Club. You'll hear her talk about the Money Launch Club and the impact it's had on her life and her journey since joining. So you'll hear more about that later in the episode. But for now, here's what I want you to know. Now, there is still time to sign up for my free class. If you're listening to this in real time, this episode comes out July 15. I know some people you may rush to download and listen to it or maybe you're listening to this later. But if you are happening to listen to this before July 16. I'm holding a class on Thursday, July 16, that you can still join. It's totally free. And I'm helping you map out how you can reach financial independence. So there's still time to join go to journeytolaunch.com/freeclass to sign up. And if you happen to listen to this after that date, don't worry, check out Money Launch Club. So I am opening up doors to the Money Launch Club the following week. So we're going to be open until July 23. So again, Ysanet is going to talk all about it we're going to talk about this a bit in the episode but if you want more information and you want to join us join me in Ysanet come to moneylaunchclub.com. All right, that's all I got. Let's go right into this conversation with Ysanet.

Okay, journeyers really excited because we have one of our own on the podcast. Today, Ysanet Thank you so much. Ysanet Batista. Gotta say your last name to give you some respect on your name. joining us on today's podcast, I'm excited about it because Ysanet is not only a true journeyer, she listens to the podcast, but she's also in the Money Launch Club. And I've known you for a bit now. Ysanet like you listen to the podcast, I see you on social, you have your own business. So it's pretty cool like to see your business grow. Also, while you are tuning in with your finances, but then you're also on the Money Launch Club. So I feel like I know you on another level versus maybe just someone who listens like externally to the podcast. It's like because we meet once a month, and you update me on your goals. And we have all these conversations within the money launch club that I feel like I know so much more about you. So I wanted to bring you on the show because I think it's really important when people who are in the journey share their perspective, versus maybe like an expert or someone who's saved already a gazillion dollars, right. Like, let's talk to people who are actually in it. So I want to welcome you to the podcast and I'm excited to have everyone hear your story.

Ysanet Batista 5:57

Thank you Jamila. I'm excited to be here and honored that he thought to invite me.

Jamila Souffrant 6:02

Everyone in the Money Launch Club is amazing. But you're like a star member.

Ysanet Batista 6:08

I go on it. So often, I really try to like get the most out of it because there's so many different tools. So I just, I really like engaging with it, because they also keeps me on top of my own financial journey.

Jamila Souffrant 6:21

Right. And I think that's the amazing thing about the Launch Club, and we can talk about that a little bit later. But that fact that you're like, so self motivated, because, you know, with things like that it's online, it's self paced some of the work that's in there, you can literally like you, it's up to you to show up the information and support is there. And some people just don't have the time or they can show up like once a month or once every couple months. And they're like, I got what I needed. I had this question, or I needed this and they're fine. And some people need more of that. And so I think it's just amazing that you utilize it in a way that it works for you. But before we talk about the Money Launch Club a bit more, I do want to talk about you. You lived in New York. Now you're In Florida, right, but you have your own business. And before we press record, you were saying how you found me and Journey to Launch. So can you talk a little bit about how you came across the podcast and wanted to like, get your finances together?

Ysanet Batista 7:14

Sure. So my story's a little bit different from others. So my background is actually comes from my community organizing work. And part of that is looking at the different systems of oppression that like that marginalize people color and black people. And this was around the time that the cages were they were putting like immigrant children into it, like the current administration at the border. Yeah. So I started to look into how these things were happening, and how they were getting all this money to do this. And so that I went into a rabbit hole of divesting and I was like, wow, like my money, even even if I'm not really rich has an impact on the decisions that are being made statewide. And so I decided to to make a new year's resolution. This was January 2019, I made a new year's resolution that I was going to get my finances in order in order to have more decision power in terms of the U.S. economy. And so I put it on Facebook, that I wanted to better understand money and finances and I wanted to also do it in a way that was ethical. I wanted to learn from other People of Color are the Black people. And so a friend of mine who I went to college with, who I don't even talk to tagged your podcast. And then from there, I went on another rabbit hole, found your private Facebook group. And I joined and yeah, so simultaneously, I started divesting from large bank institutions that were loaning money to immigration detention centers or private prisons or oil pipelines, like, basically all the evils of the world. I started divesting from those fans but while simultaneously learning about, well, it doesn't matter where I bank like money money so like, where do I how do I handle it? How do I organize it so that I can create wealth, but also create generational wealth for those that come after me? So that's how I got into it. And then I mean, it's been like a saving grace because I've been able to find community in this process and you're in the Money Launch Club like really holds me accountable.

Jamila Souffrant 9:43

Now it's true like you know, you do get like a renowned sense of when it's new, the beginning beginning of the year, like you want to, like, you know, make a relative resolution and do something. But coupled on that when you have like such a mission, like you know, you you had a clear view that you wanted to make your dollars work for to you and to better the world and your community. And so you had a clear mission, which is why I always say once you have like an internal drive or moral compass driving you for something more than just like yourself, like while going on the trip is fine. And having that be your goal is fine. When you find that like deep level, like oh, no, the community, the world is depending on me to like, make sure my money is doing the best it can then it's like a different type of motivation.

Ysanet Batista 10:27

Yeah, for sure. I thought always that people have a lot of money, like rich people had an impact on how things happen. And it's true. There is a lot of power that wealthier people hold, but I also have power and I have also internal power, which is a little bit different. And it's really important to understand your why. And before I didn't really care or had a why and then once I found it, then it was really hard to kind of shake it off and I just had to like, go forward.

Jamila Souffrant 11:00

Yeah. So can you talk a little bit more about your background? So you're living in New York when you I think you find the podcast and my stuff. But where were you financially? At that point? Were you single? And I'm asking like the more personal questions because sometimes like it matters how on if you're on this with a partner trying to figure it out or you're by yourself, or like the fact that you lived in New York, very high cost of living and the industry here and you did community work, which is typically not associated with like high salary. So if you could talk a little bit more about like the just the makeup of who you were when you started this journey?

Ysanet Batista 11:32

Sure. So I say that I've been learning a little bit of our finances since probably 2016. I was doing AmeriCorps, which is a program that you don't get paid a lot of money. It's I was going to pay like maybe $900 to $1,000 a month, and that was really tight living in New York. Luckily, I was living or friends who will charge me very little rent and while also doing AmeriCorps that's when I started more actively community organizing work and started doing work around Black Lives Matter. Other work related to to the Dominican community and racial equity within within us. And then, yeah, it was like really, really struggling with my own home and like not having money to buy healthy food. And then sort of wondering like, why that was. And that's kind of what got me started to learning more about the economy and finances and how it weaves into all parts of our lives. I wanted to like a finance class on my bank had my local bank had, and at the time, I was making like $12,000.

Jamila Souffrant 12:45

In New York City.

Ysanet Batista 12:47

In New York City. I don't know how I survived but I did. And it wasn't easy. There was a time where I also experienced like homelessness in New York and was couch surfing or floor surfing amongst friends houses, and then I started my own business. And it was like a side hustle to make up for the lack of money that I was making on working in like organizing work and education. After AmeriCorps, I found that I really was interested in food, specifically plant based food. So that's how I started my business Woke Foods, which focuses on Dominican plant based food. And specifically we were I was really interested in providing healthy meals to other community organizers because the work of hosting events on doing protest like educating, organizing and community takes a big toll on your on your body and your mental health. So that's how like that was the idea of Woke Foods like providing food for people on the ground, that we're doing this important, important work. So starting that business was hard. I used like this probably illegal, but I use like half of my food stamps, to buy the food for like the catering or the meal prepping. And then the other half, I would use it for myself. So I required budgeting, because I had to like budget, my how much money I was going to spend every month on myself, and how much I was going to put into into the cost of goods sold for the business. And then over time, I realized having my own business, I had a lot of money, trauma, and a lot of scarcity mindset, and that because of community organizing work, and because I was you know, educating myself on systemic oppression and racism, I had this deep belief that money was evil. That money was evil. That was my belief, but then so understanding better and I was like well, or one of an elder actually asked me, well, what would a million dollars in the hands of Ysanet that look like? I was like, wow, if I had a million dollars, I would do X and Y and Z. And then the conversation was like, well, it's not that money is evil, is that there are certain people who use money to hurt communities, but money in your hands could look different. That's when things are really shifting for me. As for my work as for my value within my business, within my jobs, I was working like five different jobs, still making like $11,000 $12,000 even after AmeriCorps, I stayed in that income bracket. So I had to make a hard decision, kind of started focusing more on my business and then got one part time job plus my business that could really support me. So that's when I started going up to 30,000. And now I'm in the I'm in the 40-45 bracket. But I am still I am single. I don't have any children. My family does not depend on me cuz I know that's the story of some other people. So I kind of just spend my money on on me and my goals and my business and some of the organizing work that I do.

Jamila Souffrant 16:10

Oh my gosh, Isa net like everything you just said, I have so many just things I want to like, comment on, because hearing your story, like I didn't know that detail of your story that you had some homelessness in your experience and how little like you made to start. So what did you go to school for?

Ysanet Batista 16:28

I went to school in Providence, Rhode Island, Johnson & Wales University. It's a private university. And so I took out a lot of loans. I studied Hotel and Tourism Management and also food service. So I've worked in that industry. Yeah, but working in hotels and and catering. So I was like, 16.

Jamila Souffrant 16:50

Yeah, yeah. And you said something that you know, with the whole food stamps thing, which first of all, I would think like that is the best thing you could do with it. Your food stamps, taking some power back, and like trying to make away whether that meant like then you ate less or whatever, you know, like that you were like sacrificing so that you can like build a business like I would think they should give you extra money for people who you know, because we are full of beautiful ideas and things that will change this world is we don't have the capital sometimes you don't have the capital or the support. And so imagine like that. And so I just think that's amazing. Like, if that's illegal, then everyone should be trying to they could do something like that because I stick is commendable. So Wow.

Ysanet Batista 17:34

Yeah, I use all the resources I could I got a job at a farmers market and at the end of the farmers market, all the extra produce, I would take home. Like I was like, where are the resources? I signed up for like a five month startup business boot camp to start my business it was free. And yeah, like I found a lot of different resources. A lot of my friends were sending me resources and I would just sign up for everything and really like hustle. Yeah, I think that's what I would say like I hustled my way through, through getting out of out of poverty and out of like that income bracket that was really suffocating me and allowing me to, to shine and to call for my community what I all that I had to offer.

Jamila Souffrant 18:19

Yeah. So how did you? How did you go from I know, like, I know, you said you, like had a couple of like smaller jobs that weren't really paying much. How did you go from the $11,000? Just like as the work on the side, because your business like takes a lot of your time. How did you go from that to now making like in the 40s, which, you know, is significantly like more like in New York, you know, that still not that much because of the cost of living, but how did you manage to make that climb to do that?

Ysanet Batista 18:52

I did a few different things. The internal work happens when I read this book. I can remember the name of it right now, but it was something around like, your self worth determines your net worth, or something along those lines. We'll have to find it in some send you the name of it specifically. But that book really caught me out on a lot of things. I really was like, Okay, yeah, I definitely don't charge people what I should charge for the services I offer. And then it was hard because the service that was offering was to the community members. And so I just kind of decided to switch things around. And we started I don't want to backtrack my business, I decided to make it a worker cooperative business, which is a business model that was used a lot by by black people in the south during segregation. And it's just like, the idea of collectively like owning things and working together is you know, connected to like my ancestors. And so, it wasn't just me. I had other people that were working alongside me, but because I was the founder I, I was doing like the majority of like the heavy lifting. So we decided to shift and started offering catering to like nonprofit organizations, foundations. And so like charging those people that had budgets, tht had money to pay us and so and we also got like a Fiscal Sponsorship through a nonprofit so I was able to apply for grants. And so a combination of those things it really required me to required me and my, my fellow workers to, like really reimagine what business could be like in order to stay with the niche way that we felt we did our business. So that's how that started. And then there was one time where I decided to work a full time job and my side business only lasted for like three months because I was dying. Yeah, and then I found a part time job that paid really well that was paying $30 an hour for me to take the most I've ever gotten paid in my life. And then to stay with that. I was like, I'm just gonna stick to my part time job and my business. And so I was working full time for my business and then part time with the nonprofit. And that's kind of when I had to really buckled down with like my finances. Not that I ever, because I've never made that much money. I've never been like a spender. I've never been a person who buys like a lot of clothes, or I've just I don't do that. And so budgeting wasn't that difficult. It's just like the discipline and the practice of doing it. That was the hard thing for me. So I don't I don't know the answer of like, how that shift happened, but I do think that it was a mixture of like, the internal work, and then also utilizing the resources I had around me.

Jamila Souffrant 21:56

Yeah, and I don't think it's ever just like one thing you know, like, it's always like these combinations of these small things. But the biggest influence is the internal work like you had mentioned about the way you thought about money. And that all like stems from the way we were brought up our culture, our culture, that we're raised in our neighborhoods, all these things that like matter with the way we think about money that can include some self sabotage on how much we earn or make or decide that we're worth, right, especially when you have your own business. I mean, it happens to like if you work in corporate America, and you're trying to maybe negotiate a salary, but especially when you as a business owner setting prices and you're serving customers, people like you, it's a little different, like when you're working with with a big business. Maybe you don't feel as bad when you're just like, Oh, I'm just gonna charge as much as I can versus well, like, I feel like I should be helping but not realizing that this is helping. And then the fact that you have more money, the more that you're able to do with it. That's the goal, right? Like so it's not a bad thing if you have money.

Ysanet Batista 22:58

Yeah, it was great because then the idea idea was for us to hire people that had a really hard time accessing jobs so I was able to hire my grandmother who's an immigrant. And her job was more like a home attendant. And you know, to cook like you don't need to know like English, like you don't need a lot of things. A lot of people a lot of women in my community like just know how to cook that's all they that's what they do. And so I was able to hire my grandmother and other people like my grandmother and just hire other community people and pay them you know, we were I start paying people $20 an hour for catering and then it goes up depending on what on what the service that is other providing. And so because I was able to kind of understand more the value of what we were offering and going out and mixing in I wouldn't say like I was only going after businesses and nonprofits but like mixing in and prioritizing like them for a bit. So then we can return to more community based work was like a really good tactic and so we did that I was able to then hire more cooks, pay them what they're also worth. And then that over time started to make the grants. And then last summer, we were able to do like four or five free cooking classes for people that lived in affordable housing. Because we took that break. And we're like, okay, let's focus on like, get going after going after the big contract money, the big contracts, going after the big contracts, and getting ourselves stable enough, the foundation, and then we can do the community based work without, but I did have to, like, stay vigilant to my why and the purpose, because I know sometimes I've seen other other companies go after the big contracts and kind of stay there. And so I had to stay really vigilant to not just stay there but like return ready to the purpose and so a combination and have that balance.

Jamila Souffrant 24:58

That's amazing. Amazing. So you brought up also another good point about just money and the way it's, we think about it. And as much as in the personal finance space, it's like, oh, well, you know, like, make sure you're watching what you spend and all these things. Sometimes it's just like the ink the income is the problem. You are doing the best you can with what you're making, but what you're making is not enough. It's not like I'm going out and buying expensive things or eating out often. It's literally I'm working with what I have and what I have is not a lot.

Ysanet Batista 25:29

Yeah, that's what I appreciated about you, Jamila and finding your podcasts out there wasn't that shaming that I was seeing other finance community so gone, like, stop going to Starbucks, and it's like, I don't even go to Starbucks. I don't go to Starbucks. I cook at home on I'm a chef like, I also, you know, started getting into farming. I'm like, I'm growing my own food. Like I'm doing everything that I can like it's more than that. It's more than that. It's a combination of like, internal trauma, but also like the external systems that really make it hard for people like me or people at the margins to really succeed like financially and economically. So it's it's not just it's not just one thing. It's very it's layered. And that's what sometimes people don't other people in the finance world don't understand.

Jamila Souffrant 26:17

Yeah. When you did make the decision to say, All right, I'm listening to the podcast I like I love you know, I'm loving what's happening. When did you feel like you wanted to take it a step further? Like when did you say to yourself, okay, like I have I'm making headway with my business and I have these money things going on. And I do want to go back to like, maybe some of your debt cuz I think that will be relatable for some people like because you mentioned you had a lot of student loan, which, I mean, most people still are dealing with a lot of student loans. And then what makes those worse is that you have student loans and industries that the degree you never really use, and it was like overpriced and oversold to you and you had like, no clue. So I guess I want to talk about that first, what were your money goals when you started to listen and like want to get more deeper into the journey to financial independence?

Ysanet Batista 27:07

For me was credit card debt I had about $11,000 in consumer debt. And the high interest of the credit cards were really, really like killing me. And I just felt like I couldn't, I would make payments and then the interest would hit and it was like, that was literally half my payment. And I just felt like I was in a hamster wheel. And then the student loans also because I made so little I was already on an income based repayment plan. So I didn't have to, like pay them monthly but I would see kind of the interest increase. So interest was like, Ah, it was really hard. Like, it's like the evil thing. I'm just like, who created this I this idea of interest. It's terrible. It's terrible. And so that was really my struggle. Also, a bigger thing for me is that I had to have housing insecurity like having my own home was really important for me. So I was like, I really want to pay this consumer debt this credit card debt because I'm throwing so much money to that and like what would it look like to throw that same amount of money into like a savings account? So I can like own my own home or my land?

Jamila Souffrant 28:19

Yeah. And with that, so as you are like realizing, okay, this is possible I'm, I'm assuming that you you started to realize that you could make headway with your finances and like pay off debt through maybe some of the stuff you were hearing like on the podcast and do your own work. But what made you decide to go from Alright, I'm gonna just like listen to the podcast, and then Oh, wait, there's this thing that feels like doing on the side or, you know, in her business that I need to like join, like what made you feel like, you want to take the next step to join the community, the Money Launch Club?

Ysanet Batista 28:50

I needed accountability. And I needed a community that was talking about these things, because a lot of my my community is connected. is more connected to like organizing work and social justice. The conversation around money are very focused on capitalism and how and it's and it's evil in its evilness. But there wasn't really a conversation about how to use money to create space to create a little bit of freedom in our lives. And so that is a conversation that is coming, it's being more talked about now, but very rarely and so I needed a community, but I also wanted a community of people that looked like me. And so that's how I ended up. I'm like, No, I'm definitely gonna invest in this. Because I was like, the time you know, the time you were charging specific amount, and that amount is what I would spend on like, I don't know something else. I was like, that's not that much. And because I have my own small business. I really like to funnel my money into other small businesses. So I will say if I'm gonna learn and get information on want to pay this this black woman for it? Because she's worth it. And obviously this podcast is giving me so much I can just imagine what being part of some exclusive membership community will will give me an offer me. And so that's why I joined and that's exactly what I feel I got out of it, I still get out of it.

Jamila Souffrant 30:19

And one amazing Thank you. And you know, as you're talking, I'm like, Yeah, for me. Not since I think especially since having my own business and seeing progress in like my skill sets how much I have the potential to earn right now. And like, I realize how much more value I get like you can't have a business or it's hard. If you are the kind of person who looks at someone who and that has money and says they're not a good person or that is evil that then you would have it it's hard if you're trying to earn money yourself, whether it's a side hustle and your job, looked down on or judge like another business owner making money right like you happily then invest in things that you find value in. Because you understand that it's an investment, it's something that is going to like, pay you back more than what you're putting in. That's the whole point is providing you value. And so I, when I realized that in myself, like I started investing in courses and coaches and systems for my business, it made it so much more clear. Like, yeah, if people find value in what I'm doing, like they should pay, because I had some of the same hang ups, especially earlier on, like, with Journey to Launch like, Oh, no, like, I can't like charge for this or this amount. And then I'm realizing but like, how are you leading this community talking about earning if you can't earn, like, so I feel like part of my story is also going to be how I make this work. And so I can't be afraid to like say, Hey, guys, this is a product or this is a service that I have this, this is the investment for it and be afraid to like promote that to you guys, because then how can I turn around and tell you guys to succeed in your own businesses, ask for your own raises if I can't do that in my business, right?

Ysanet Batista 32:01

Yeah. And I I personally see it, I feel the effort that you put into, you know your brand. And yeah, everything from like the visuals that make it easy to understand things. I'm a visual learner. So I appreciate all the visuals that you offer. To just the quality of the information, and also the broadness of how we can access the information, you know, through your through, you know, the freebies, through the podcast through the membership community, like this many variety of things that you offer. And I because I've been following you for a long time. I've seen you elevate what you offer, and it's good. It's always been good quality. And so it's like, yeah, this is definitely worth it. In my mind. We're going to question how much she charges because she's, she's going to charge what she needs to charge. And I think that's something that I also like, I didn't think like that before, but now I do. Like I don't question how much people charge for things, especially people of color. I'm just like they're charging what they what they need to charge If it's something that I want, I'm going to budget for it because it's worth it.

Jamila Souffrant 33:04

Exactly. I love that love that. So the thing that you brought up, which I think is pretty important is the accountability part of it. So in the Money Launch Club, like there, there's programming we have like monthly classes and events. But what I find is I had this thread in the launch club, because I always like to dig down into, like, why people choose to join and why they stay and all this. And, you know, I was expecting because there's this course right now, that's still included in the Launch Club. Right. And I think it's like one of the most valuable things in it, that it's included with the Launch Club, because it's like the 10 step program. And people go through it at their own pace. And they're all these like things that you help you map out your path to financial independence. And most people were just like, accountability support community, like that was what like for them was the sticking point. It was somewhere like you just said that they can be and I think that sometimes you know, you listen to the podcast and if you're making I would say this, if you are the kind of person who is listens to the podcast, you're just like, boom, I'm just like going out, I'm doing it like, I can be in my own like world and make this work, then fine. You may not need something like a Money Launch Club. But for the people who find themselves starting stopping, knowing that they should be doing something like you know else, but they just don't, because no one's kind of like helping them along the way kind of thing like, then this would be something that you should consider. So I want you to talk a little bit more about the accountability because I know to what I love about this community, Money Launch Club is that we have other members that are local. So I know you were like meeting up you like with other members, Cassandra right. She was on the podcast before and you you guys talk offline like it's real community.

Ysanet Batista 34:41

Yeah, I you. You mentioned earlier that I'm like self motivated, to some extent I am but honestly, it's because I have a lot of accountability. Because I have community. And so in this financial independence journey, I have this community of Money Launch Club I really like that one of the things that you offered us or you push this tool was finding an accountability, buddy. And so that's how I found Cassandra. And she was living in the Bronx, and I was living in Harlem. So we were living near each other. Yeah, we just decided to meet up in person. And I really liked it because we went to this black own bookstore in the Bronx, if we were also like, you know, like off, like, you know, funneling money into that bookstore while we were meeting. And then my, one of my best friends, Bianca was also on a similar journey. I was like, Hey, I think you should join the Money Launch Club. And I think I really like how sometimes exclusive money launch club so I was like, the doors aren't open yet. When they do open, I'll let you know. So she joins and then I asked to turn Oh, come on, come join our meetings. She also lives in the Bronx. And so yeah, we've been meeting like for I think six months now. We actually have a meeting today. So we meet the first Wednesday of every month, and before quarantine it was in person but now we'll be over zoom And it's just amazing. Like we just come into those meetings and like, go through our sheets that you have for us. So we go we always have our sheets ready. And we go through them and we figure out what are our goals? What are we talking about? Like what are some things that we're going to do this month that to be different, we talk about just feeling like you know, I'm feeling like really impatient, I'm feeling really motivated, whatever things come up and it's also getting nice because I Cassandra recently bought a home and she's our age you know, we're not we're in our in our mid 20s or mid 20s well I am about to turn 30, and a few months, but it's all like amazing to see someone that is from my culture, who's from my community and who is similar to my age, like achieving this thing and like I know her and she's like not offering me and Bianca tips because we're also interested in homeownership. And so I really appreciate like how chill down to earth and relatable is so yeah, so yeah, self motivation but also accountability and resources that one time that you had the Atomic Habits author James Clear on the podcast. Yeah, that episode really changed things for me. And it was just I think Cassandra was like, listen to this episode. And then you think then we we had to read the book and the book club. And honestly, that book was really what has kept me so on top of like, my habits. And so I think it's a combination of accountability community and also resources.

Jamila Souffrant 37:31

Yeah, so one of the things that Ysanet just showed if you're not watching the video, so I have these accountability sheets and just resources for people that while you can come into Launch Club and set your goals and what you accomplish, I was like, I need to create something that people can like print out so one of the things that you showed was this monthly goal setting sheet that we use to like really declare our goals and members used together. So I'm so happy that you guys actually like I was like, are you every time I like post something like print this out. I always remind people to print it out to make sure they know what there, but the other thing that we do is we have a book club meeting every other week or every other week. Yeah, right like we can read that fast every other month in theLaunch Club so Atomic Habits was one of the books so we try to stick to books that will help reinforce our habits our mindset, our just our finances and self development because sometimes this is like how many personal finance books can you read? So I try to like I try to talk about like more like and pick things that are more broad. But yeah, I think that the you guys showing up together in that way, like priceless I love that you guys are still even continuing doing it now that you're not even in New York, especially with quarantine anyway, we wouldn't you would guys wouldn't have been able to do that.

Ysanet Batista 38:42

Yeah, I mean, Cassandra is my friend now like, that's my girlfriend like, and also happy that like, I met her through the through the Launch Club, and it's like beyond Money Launch Club and money. And so yeah, just really grateful for the the community aspect of it.

Jamila Souffrant 38:59

Let's talk about like stats because people are like, okay, like Kumbaya like she's like, like she has a friend now right? Like, which I'm sure people are are excited but and maybe hopefully would want it right in their own like circle like, yeah, I need to like strengthen up like the people around me and like we're talking about money, but let's maybe talk about some other like the actual things you're able to do with your finances right cuz I know when you said you had credit card debt, you had some student loan you didn't own that. But what were some of the things like your goals coming in to the community because you've now been a member since like January 2019. And where are you now like with some of what you've accomplished, if you can share that?

Ysanet Batista 39:34

Sure. So I started with about 12 to $11,000 of consumer debt. I am now down to $3000. And I have also been able to open a retirement account with a Roth IRA, which I don't invest like to the max every year but I'm just trying to get to the habit of it so that when I am making that money or when I stop when I stop throwing money to consumer debt then I can funnel it into the retirement account. I think also, I never knew about the fight financial independence retire early movement and even when I got into your community, I saw it, but I dismissed it because I didn't feel like that's something I could do. until I reached the 10 steps, the calculator to reach financial independence number and the flex independence session. And I've like filled out that sheet you had in there and I was like, oh, wow, I can really retire a 45 if I if I could, if I stay consistent. And so that was definitely now something I'm aiming towards. So it's it's it's something it's a part a part of my life. I will I will be financially independent and retire early. What else? Oh, my credit score went up like 100 points. When I started Money Launch Club now I think my credit score was like 650. And then it's like 741. Now, right?

Jamila Souffrant 39:51

Which is extremely important for you because you want to buy something.

Ysanet Batista 41:02

Mm hmm, that was really helpful. And then I also just because interest was such a big headache for me and paying off my consumer debt or my credit card debt, I was able to do a balance transfer loan. And so now I don't the debt that I'm paying back, it's that though that $3,000 is still from that one credit card, but I don't have to pay that, that 27% balance. Now my interest is like 10%. So that was really helpful. Yeah, this month, I'm focused on opening a 401k. And then I also started to learn about like real estate and multifamily home purchasing. So that's the journey that I'm starting to, to research this month. And it's just so much that has happened because because every month you make us think about goals is like okay, what am I going to work on this month. So it kind of elevate each month. So And also, I think I'm also learning to be patient with my journey. Because there's so much, there's so much to learn. And so I'm like, Okay, you know what, like retirement and investing in retirement, something I'm super focused on right now, but I can, I can do a little bit, or other things I didn't know about rainy day sinking funds. Now I have one. Now I have like $300 in there. And that's cool. Building my emergency funds is also something that I have, I think it was just like opening different accounts and budgeting for for those versus before, it was just like a savings account, which savings before in my mind was like a checking account. But now it's like no savings account. You don't touch it. It just you know, stays there. And it goes in a high yield interest account. And so little things like that have been have been really helpful. And then the last thing has been the student loans that episode that you had. David was his name.

Jamila Souffrant 42:56

Yes, David Carlson.

Ysanet Batista 42:58

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, the student loans. Wow, that blew my mind because I really was. So the student loans are really a big headache. So learning about his approach to student loans and that everybody should approach it that way. But I like his approach. So I'm going to do it, how he says how he said to do it, because I have $70,000 worth of student loans. And I just kind of feel like if I'm gonna, if I'm going to earn $70,000, I rather invested into a home or to some land, versus like paying for a student loan. So I guess mapping out my journey and then tackling things Little by little, and like, doing like the bigger picture like okay, 2020 is for this 2021 before this, and 2021 and so forth.

Jamila Souffrant 43:46

So and So David. So that's the other thing that we do Launch Club, we invite guests who are on the podcast to come back. Sometimes they're not guests, but sometimes they are and they teach a topic so David did come into the Launch Club, and talk about student loans specific for Launch Club members. And they were able to ask questions, which is what I love about diving deeper, like what I'm able to do because I could talk to people sometimes on the podcast like, for hours, but they don't have that kind of time, right? Or I want to ask more specific questions. So being able to come into the Launch Club so they can like help people and or teach more and share their experience and story is amazing. And the other thing about just like the, you mentioned, like really briefly, like the not knowing that you could reach financial independence, so one of the things so there's the 10 step course right now that's included with the Launch Club, and it literally maps out like when you do the 10 steps, all the things that you need to do to consider how you're going to use financial independence the things that end the money side of things like how much you need and what I find is that before you consider because if you think about why I'm gonna need like $2 million before I can be financially independent, that's a lot. So I when I came up with one of the steps it was how do we calculate this financial independence number but then show you like that you can plug and pull it put in numbers and different scenarios that you can make this work based on flexibility. So part of that is where you're referring to where you could plug in your numbers. And I've had so many people say, Oh my gosh, like I didn't know it was possible until I looked at this worksheet or took the 10 step course. So that's why I feel like part of it is like blind spots, right? There are some things that you didn't know at all. And when it came to maybe you student loan or like high yield accounts, like small things, but they're so important. It's like these little blocks that make up the structure.

And I find that, yes, we want to focus on the big things like I just wanna be debt free. I just want to like have a million dollar business or are these things which are amazing to want to do. But there's so many other little things like the practical day to day, things that you need to work on that sometimes you don't even know until you're in communities where someone could say, Hey, did you think about this, or I have this going on? Oh, I didn't know that. That was possible. Let me learn more. And that's what I love about the space, the Money Launch Club in the community. So when it comes to your business, I do see want to like talk a little bit more about that. So people can, like follow you and your journey because you're still in the middle, right like, of making that successful. I mean, it already is like, I feel like the mission is amazing. So can you just talk a little bit about what you see for yourself, and then where you see your business and your finances going, like what your goals are for yourself over the next year or two?

Ysanet Batista 46:19

Sure. So my big focus right now is saving the money I need to to do two purchases. So I want to purchase a property in New York City, but I also want to purchase the land and build the house back in my hometown of the Dominican Republic. So I'm actively doing that right now. And so I hope that that both of those things can happen in the next two or three years. And one of the things I want to do with the property I purchased in New York City is also be able to house my business so that Woke Foods can have a brick and mortar. It could be like a cafe or big farming space, calm enjoy. plant based food while also hang out and that it could be like a farm to table or more like urban farm to table situation. And right now where I was kind of doing that, like in my apartment in Harlem, I did like a dinner where people had for for seatings like a restaurant. And so I was like experimenting, like how it could look like and that's where I got the idea. I was like, you know what, I'm going to purchase like, multi family home in Harlem, and I'm going to use one of the floors to like the bottom floors have a garden and in a cafe space for Woke Foods. And so yeah, so I imagine myself kind of being in both places simultaneously. And I definitely need to hire a new shop because I'm the one that like does most most of the cooking and the menu planning. And so thinking about how to train other people to come in and not just work for the business but also feel like they have like a stake and an ownership in the business. And building my emergency fund. That's one of the things I used my simulus check for, put it in my emergency fund. And if any other stimulus check comes it's also going to go to the emergency fund. Another goal of mine is to focus full time on my business. Because right now I work part time for another organization, which I love. And it's great, but it would just be really nice just to be able to dedicate myself full time to my business.

Jamila Souffrant 48:29

Yeah, I love that and I'm you know, I'm like rooting for you all the way I'm sure after this, they're gonna people like, we want to see you win too Ysanet. So the other this last question I do have is for anyone who's like on the fence, or has some doubts about maybe being able to pursue their goals or like the idea of the Launch Club, but they're not sure like, Is there anything or that you would say that you were able to overcome? Or that would encourage someone to really like bet on themselves in this way and invest if they see this as something or feel this something that could work for them.

Ysanet Batista 49:00

Sure, I mean, I think something I've told my friends who I've, you know, I promote this all the time to my friends because I also see them, you know, in their own journey and are like struggling in their journey. It's like you don't do it alone. You don't have to do it alone. You can do it with other people. You could do it alone, but I don't know how I don't I just feel like it could take a little longer and it could feel like kind of alone. And so you should just do it with other people. And it's an investment. It's not even that much money once you start like getting into the budget of it if and if you're like thinking, oh my God, it's, it's, you know, I don't have the money for it. That's exactly why you should join the Money Club because it will help you find the money for it. Well, you start getting into the, into the into the framework and and so the sessions and into the, you know, like all the different offerings that the club offers us.

Jamila Souffrant 49:56

Amazing. Thank you so much, Ysanet. Now, please tell me where they can find you more about your business and follow your journey.

Ysanet Batista 50:04

Sure so people can follow my business page it's called Woke Foods like stay woke. And we have a website called wokefoods. Coop and then I have a personal page where I I have like a highlight where I I walk people through my journey of financial independence and that's @ysanetbatista both on Instagram.

Jamila Souffrant 50:28

And I will share all this in episode show notes. Thank you so much Isa net for coming on sharing being so like open sharing your story. I know this will inspire and motivate a lot of people so thank you.

Ysanet Batista 50:38

Thank you Jamila.

Jamila Souffrant 50:44

Okay, journeyers. I really hope you enjoy that conversation Ysanet and that it further inspires you to go after your goals. No matter how long the journey seems, every step you take on it matters. And so hearing from Ysanet helps further inspire you. One more thing , Ysanet after we stopped recording she told me that she recently launched a podcast and I told her I'd give her podcasts a shout out. It's all about money and it's called Free the Bag. So check out Ysanet's podcast. I'll also include that in the episode show notes. If you're listening to this in real time, it's not too late to sign up for the free class on July 16. So if you listen to this, as soon as the episode comes out, you still have time to join us at the free class where I'll help you map out your journey to financial independence. Go to journeytolaunch.com/free class and then check out today's sponsor, YNAB who can help you get your budget all the way together by going to youneedabudget.com/journey. Now by the time you may be listening to this, maybe it is past the time that the free class occurred. Don't worry, the Money to Launch Club doors then will be open. I'm opening them for one week. So for the week, up to July 23. And if you want for more information about that just go to moneylaunchclub.com This is what Ysanet talks about joining the community that helps her reach her goals, the support, and you know, check it out. We are welcoming you here. We are waiting for you to join us.

Alright now until next week, which by the way, next week will be a really special episode because I'm labeling that the anniversary episode where you'll get to hear voices like yourself, who are listeners of the podcast on the show. Wait for that that's happening next week, but until then, keep on journeying journeyers.

Don't forget if you want the episode shownotes. To get any of the links mentioned in this episode, go to journeytolaunch.com or click the description wherever you're listening to this to get the link to the show notes. And if you want that free Jumpstart Guide to help you on your financial freedom journey, text launch to 33777 text launch to 33777 to get your free guide today or go to journeytolaunch.com/jumpstart if you want to support me and the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen. Whether that's Apple podcasts, that purple app on your phone, your Android device, YouTube, Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen, just subscribe so you're not missing an episode. And if you're happening to listen to this and Apple podcasts, rate review and subscribe there I appreciate and read every single review. Number two, follow me on my social media accounts. I'm @journeytolaunch on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And I love love love interacting with journeyers there. Three, support and checkout the sponsors of this show if you hear something that interests you, sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here. So show them some love for supporting your girl. Four and last but not least, share this episode this podcast with a friend or family member or co worker so that we can spread the message of Journey to Launch. Alright, that's it. Until next week, keep on journeying journeyers.

Jamila Souffrant 0:00

You're listening to the Journey to Launch Podcast The Geometry of Wealth How to Shape a Life of Money and Meaning with Brian Portnoy.

Welcome to the Journey to Launch Podcast with your host Jamila Souffrant. As a money expert who walks her talk, she helps brave journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in five, four, three, two, one.

Jamila Souffrant 0:39

Hey, hey, journeyers. Welcome to the Journey to Launch Podcast. You're in for another treat this week. I am bringing you a very, very enlightening what I believe to be enlightening and insightful conversation with author Brian Portnoy. Brian Portnoy helps people simplify the complex world of money. He's the Founder of Shaping Wealth, a financial wellness company. He also wrote the book The Geometry of Wealth, which we will be speaking about in today's episode. And I really loved his book because he approaches wealth, in the nuanced way that it needs to be approached, like, there's just not one way to do it's not just about numbers. There's all this behavioral science that goes into like, why we do the things we do, what we're motivated by. So he's able to really combine that and look into not just the numbers and the investment about part of it, but just like what our natural tendencies are, what they have to do with building wealth and achieving long term happiness when it comes to money. So I'm really excited that you get to hear this conversation.

Jamila Souffrant 1:41

If you want the episode Show Notes for this episode, go to journeytolaunch.com or you can click the description or wherever you're listening to this episode to get the full episode show notes. Now, if you are a new listeners to the podcast, or an OG journeyer I've created a jumpstart guide to help you on your journey to financial freedom. It includes the top episodes to listen to, the stages to go through to reach financial freedom, resources to help you and so much more. Get it for FREE by texting launch to 33777 text launch to 33777 or go to JourneytoLaunch.com/jumpstart to get your guide for free right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode.

Jamila Souffrant 2:30

Okay, journeyers, I am really excited to bring to you this special guest, Brian Portnoy, who wrote the book, The Geometry of Wealth. And Brian, I know you've written books previous to this one, but this is the book that I read, and that I basically was like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. The way you deconstructed money and how it integrates in our lives, and how to be successful at it was just I just thought it was really practical and amazing. And so I was like, I gotta get you on the podcast. Actually, before we pressed record, we were talking about how things have changed since we first kind of tried to connect. And now we have this, you know, pandemic. By the time this probably comes out, hopefully, fingers crossed, we'll be, there'll be some sort of clearer path to getting out of this. But Brian, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to have you on.

Brian Portnoy 3:17

This is awesome. Thank you.

Jamila Souffrant 3:18

So Brian, your book is called The Geometry of Wealth. And there are so many amazing concepts that you know how you have like these ideas in your head, but you never really put words or a label or title on it. I found that I was reading your book, like a lot of the things that you said, I was like, "Yes," that's exactly what I feel how I haven't been able to put into words yet and what I want my audience to like get. So I guess we should start out with what the geometry of wealth is because you actually take it in a really literal sense to with like shapes. And then like, geez, wonderful, like parts of a whole that come together for finances. So can you talk about a little bit what it actually means this geometry of wealth?

Brian Portnoy 3:56

Yeah, yeah. And thanks for having me on. This is I really appreciate it. The first idea is that the world is a noisy and complicated place. And our brains weren't necessarily wired to process the amount of information that we all right now are right now. And so when we feel overwhelmed when we have what psychologists called decision fatigue, which is a real thing with physical consequences, it's super important to have frameworks that are relatively simple, that help us make sense of the world. So this concept of mental models has become more and more important to me, not only in my career, but as a father and a husband. And as I think about how to navigate these noisy times, what what tools can we create, that help us just simplify, you know, independent of money and stuff that we'll get into. What I wanted to do in this book was create one big but simple mental model with lots of little underlying stuff and even goofiness, but one big mental model that can help us achieve true wealth in life, and I have been very impressed with people in finance, who have been able to get not only passed the numbers, which few do and to decent words, but beyond the words to just images, you know, the brain processes images, like 60,000 times faster than it does words, and it resonates. But for some reason, we're so stuck up in the money business that we think that everything needs to be a spreadsheet, and every number has to go out three decimal places, and it's just noise and it's really not the way we learn and the way we live. So the geometry of wealth is my map toward a happy fulfilled life in three shapes, a circle, a triangle and a square. And so if you can remember, circle, triangle, square, purpose, priorities, decisions, you have my mental model. Now I spend some time in the book walking through what those mean and what the connections are. But you know, I wanted to be clear right up front, the ingredients are on the box, we define purpose, we set priorities, and then we make specific decisions. And then we keep doing it over and over again, which is the symbol circle, our first shape, and the rest is detail.

Jamila Souffrant 6:23

Yeah, and I love that you broke that down. I think one of the things that a lot of people struggle with with money, and I made this comment earlier with someone and I said, you know, the devils in the details, so you'll hear people with some amazing feats with their finances, do a lot of amazing things, maybe pay off a lot debt, reach financial independence, do all this stuff, right? And then you realize that this whole making more saving more spending less sounds easy, you know when you say it, but when it comes to actually doing it like the practical things, what impacts us to make those decisions and to stick with, right like this journey and when things are thrown at us, is really key. And one of the points that you make in the book is that money is so complex, like, you know, it's analytically complex when you get down to reaching like, you know, your investment goals and where to invest and all these things, and it's also emotionally complex. And I want you to talk a little bit about that, because I find that some people think, Oh, you know, like, I don't get it, you know, it's, I don't know why I don't like to talk about it, or I don't want to confront it. You know, there's certain areas in my life money is one of them where I'm just like, it's hard for me to get on the train. Like for so many people that is the case like there is more going on mentally and emotionally behind it.

Brian Portnoy 7:39

The short answer is that our brains were wired to make terrible decisions about money. The reason for that is evolutionary meaning that the human brain that we have between our ears right now is more or less the same brain that existed 130,000 years ago or so. And 130,000 years ago, we were on you know, I think iPhone one or two like it was a totally different era. Now, it was obviously a time when it's hard to imagine how different it was, but survival was it and our instincts to think and react and fight or flight, to build tribes and so forth. That was what was going on. That's still the brain that we have now where the goal is to survive. And then beyond that, you're going to try to thrive in a number of different ways given given your circumstances. You map that up to money and the way we interact with each other and, you know, go go back to grade school or high school when you know, we had these silly classes about money and what is money. It's a means of exchange and it's a store of value and it's a unit of account and technically that's not wrong, but what it really is, is an emotional lightning rod. Everything that we feel from fear to greed, to joy, to hope to envy to regret is connected to money in a way that's completely unavoidable. You can't avoid it because money creeps into our life every single day. And so this isn't a stocks and bonds conversation. Yes, there's a lot to that. But there's many dimensions of money life, I think of seven, earning, saving, spending, borrowing, insuring, giving and then investing as number seven. And they're all emotionally charged because they attach to our values and even our sense of identity. So our brains, which weren't wired to deal with money very well put us in a position where all the great advice that you give, I give, you know, friends and colleagues and peers in the industry try to give, it's not the default on deaf ears because people get it. But when you say things like, buy low, sell high, I want a diversified portfolio. Invest for the long run, save more than you spend great 100%. Our brains were wired to the exact opposite of all of those. And we don't have the time today to go through all of those. But I'll just point out, you know, we have this fight or flight mentality. And so we're supposed to buy low and sell high and that's the way you make profits. You know, you buy at 10, you sell at 20, you've doubled your money, great. But the fact is that when things go down, we get scared and we run. And when things go up, we get excited. And so as a general comment about the investing community we buy, when things go higher, and we sell when things go lower. And it's not because we're stupid, it's because we're normal. It's because we're human.

Jamila Souffrant 10:40

I love that and I love that we're starting off this conversation with normalizing and telling people that these thoughts or emotions that they have around maybe when they hear these concepts, why they maybe can always follow through is valid. Like there's a reason why your innate reaction for some of these tips and things. You don't easily adapt to them and one of the things that you mentioned, it's just like now we have so many more challenges. So not only do we have our innate, how we are wired in our brain to think in to do with money, but we have more challenges like we have more control of our money. So with like us the decline of pensions and people put, you know, more 401k control over our money and us making the decisions on where to invest. We are wired to make bad money decisions, but there are also all these other things right that on top of who we are just makes it harder.

Brian Portnoy 11:29

I'll throw in something I guess a little bit historical and philosophical and hopefully a little bit controversial, which is that freedom isn't all that it's cracked up to be. So we generally, but in this country specifically have an ethos that we value, freedom, liberty, the opportunity to set our own course and that's great. In and of itself, that's totally fine. But you know, there was a pretty famous book that was written by a psychologist about 70 or 80 years ago, a guy named Erich Fromm. F-R-O-M-M. And the book was called Escape From Freedom. And it was written around the time of World War II and some of the atrocities that took place and what led up to it. And it touched on, I think, a very controversial and dangerous idea that if you can have too much freedom, you can have too much liberty because when you are given an overwhelming amount of information and an overwhelming amount of freedom to choose, it can be paralyzing. The first book I wrote was called the investors paradox. And that was a direct take, or riff on another famous book much more recent from a social psychologist named Barry Schwartz, who wrote the Paradox of Choice. And the Paradox of Choice is simply but profoundly that we crave more choice, but the more choice we get, the more miserable we become. And so in our DIY society, and now everything is DIY. I mean, you just go to Google, or YouTube and you can be an expert in just about anything in an hour right. So there's nothing that we don't have accessible, that actually has good consequences in terms of our sense of control over our lives. But it also has bad consequences in terms of feeling that things are completely out of control. And the fact that investors have more and more control, going back 50 years getting access to the capital markets in terms of buying and selling stocks and bonds very hard. Fast forward to today, you could trade effectively for free on any number of easy to access digital platforms. Is that a good or bad thing? Well, it's both.

Jamila Souffrant 13:35

Yeah, I think it's definitely a topic right? Like we all want this freedom and you know, you see it in just like simple choices day to day choices of like, if you have too many things to pick from to where or even with kids, you give them too many options and it becomes a nightmare. That's really part of the complexity of money nowadays.

Brian Portnoy 13:55

Yep.

Jamila Souffrant 13:56

So one of the things you talk about in the book is the difference between wealthy and rich. I really like and specifically the term funded contentment and the ability to underwrite a meaningful life. Can you touch upon and talk about that a bit more?

Brian Portnoy 14:09

Yeah, and thanks for asking that because it's, it's really sort of the first important fork in the road for the way I think about financial wellness. And having a healthy relationship with money. Rich is the quest for more so rich is having more money or things that money buys. And one thing that we know from our own biology and psychology is that having more and even achieving our goals doesn't necessarily make us as happy as we think. We're only so so it predicting what's going to make us happy in the future. So if you think about, you know, a big goal that you have in terms of a promotion or something good for your kids or winning the lottery or fill in the blank, whatever it is, we just assume that those quote unquote good things will make us quote unquote happy and all of us have had experiences like oh, okay that that's supposedly good thing happens, I don't feel any better. In fact, there are cases where you might feel worse. And even when that good thing happens and you do feel something resembling happiness, the intensity and duration of those emotions tend to be much weaker and much shorter than we anticipate. There's a principle in psychology known as hedonic adaptation, which is a kind of a clumsy term for we get used to everything in life, both good and bad. And there are reasons for that.

Brian Portnoy 15:35

So rich, having more money, all else equal, can be put in in a positive light, but that we know for a fact that that quest for more money, fame, accomplishment, beauty, power, tends not to have the helpful impact. And so that's not to say that money can't do good things. It's also not to say that money in some ways can't buy happiness. We can get into that. But at the same time, I think about true wealth as the ability to underwrite a meaningful life and my shorthand for that is funded contentment. And just to begin to unpack what this means, when I say being wealthy is the ability to underwrite a meaningful life, there's a lot going on there in particular, the words underwrite and the words meaning. And now 20 plus years into a investments and market career, I firmly believe that most of us approach this conversation about money backwards, meaning that we start at the end of the process in terms of investments and stocks and bonds and markets. When in fact, we should start at the beginning of the process, which is thinking about the life that we want to live and then after that, sort of never ending rumination and introspection, we can in very precise ways begin to fold money into the conversation. And again, that's the circle, triangle, square of the geometry. Well, first we defined purpose, then we set priorities, including financial ones relating to managing risk related to articulating your goals, getting further into the weeds relating to cash flows versus lump sum payments, the need for balance sheets and all that fun stuff. And then finally, toward the end of the process, very specific, better habits for making good decisions with our portfolios and with our savings accounts. So I want through my work to hopefully, you know, sort of reframe the thought process offer the mental model for people to start in the right place and not at the end of the process.

Jamila Souffrant 17:41

So what are some questions or exercises that someone can do right now to make sure that they are identifying their goals based on being wealthy, underwriting a life that like matters to them versus just rich and money?

Brian Portnoy 17:56

Yeah, yeah, it's a question that opens up I think some interesting avenues. First of all, and I alluded this to this earlier, goals aren't all they're cracked up to be. First of all, we don't always know what our goals are going to be, we have very powerful, albeit inaccurate memories and very weak powers of forecasting. So imagining what we're going to want in 10, or 20, let alone 30 or 40 years for younger people thinking long term about family, retirement, all that kind of stuff. It's something we need to do, but it's kind of dangerous because it can be wrong or at least very imprecise. And we need to be pretty careful about buying into others scripts. So maybe we could talk about retirement as a script. But there's this idea that you reach the age of 60 or 65. And then you stop working. Well, there's there's a lot of problems with that narrative, we can come back to that. And so the question then becomes that we can we can ask ourselves is well, what leads to the goals in the first place, and that tends to be our values and our priorities and our identity and our purpose. And we don't want to sit around every day thinking, what's the meaning of life? It's exhausting. It's kind of annoying and we kind of want to get on with it right? You know, you want to go do your thing, when I go to work, hang out with your friends, be with your kids, watch TV, whatever, we're not going to sit around, like Aristotle all day. That said, if we begin to take earnestly, what really matters to us, we can then understand the context within which goals come around. And once that goal framework or once your goals have a more solid footing, then they're going to be a lot more achievable from an emotional point of view. So in the book, and elsewhere, I write pretty extensively about these deeper underlying sources of meaning in our life. And you know, if you'd like I can I can dive into, you know, my framework for that.

Jamila Souffrant 19:54

We can definitely talk about that because as you were talking, I'm thinking about what wealthy means to me. How I changed my path to financial independence, you talked about retirement and this far off goal of maybe being 60. And then the idea of not working after that. And then when I came across the FIRE movement, financial independence, retire early, and there was this concept of actually, you can save and invest aggressively in this short amount of time, shorten that time frame up, that you can then have enough money to do what you want. I started that journey with that as my goal that you know, within seven years, I was going to reach this goal of financial independence and then choose what I wanted to do. Then very quickly as I started to accomplish the savings and investing goals each year, I realized that money yes, obviously the money was great and important like to have, but it was more of the time that I valued. And so I actually made the decision to give up this guaranteed short term income, which was my corporate job, to have more flexibility and time and have more control and so the money like upfront was sacrificed because my business is not earning me as much is what I made in my corporate job. But it makes me think about this balance that we have with money and time. And I would imagine that time for a lot of people is really what they're after, like the ability to control that. I would love to hear your thoughts around that.

Brian Portnoy 21:16

Yeah, this is big. So I think it's fair to argue that time is our most valuable asset. We don't get any of it back. And you sort of get you know, one ticket for the merry go round. So you want to use your time as usefully as possible. We have, and this is something I've begun to write about. We have as human beings, a pretty remarkable and sophisticated but unique sense of time or temporality. It's actually that sense of temporality is one of the, if not the most distinguishing feature of humans from other species, meaning that we have a very robust sense of the future, the past and the present. Whereas other species really don't. So our ability to think about the past, imagine the future tie connections between them is unique. And that allows for a lot of things that other species can't do, especially in terms of cooperation. And you and I can say, hey, let's get on another call a week from Tuesday. And we'll get on another call a week from Tuesday. No other species on the planet can do that. And that might sound like a trivial thing. But if you think about kind of the coordination involved, and what that means for the survival and thriving of a particular species, that's huge. Great. So we have a very robust sense of time and temporality. The hard part or I don't know if it's negative, but one of the consequences is that it's very hard for us to be kind of here, present at any one moment in time. We are constantly zipping back and forth between three modes prospection, introspection, and retrospection. And from a neurobiology point of view, the research is taking place right now on the so called future self is just beyond, beyond fascinating. And the short of it is that we're always imagining what our future self is going to be. And so we're always trying to calibrate what it is that we're going to want in the future and beyond that, who we're going to be in the future. And as is the case for many of my messages, money just falls into the story because it is truly, it's truly unavoidable. So the things that really matter to us the connection with others, having a sense of control over your own destiny, the importance of work, and so forth. These all figure into the way that you want to spend your time the best.

Jamila Souffrant 23:47

Yeah and the constant battle and dance that people have with money are doing and enjoying the now with their money and how to think about that person in the future and what they want. So Sacrifice isn't needed, delaying gratification for this goal that's further off for this idea that you have or life that you want to have. And I find that that right there of that decision making in that moment of should I do this and what's the opportunity cost and not everyone breaks out a calculator and is able to like, figure out, you know, the exact opportunity cost, but I find that people who are able to in the moment, decide what's important to them. And if it's more important to spend that money now versus investing it or saving it, are and are happy with the decision to I think part of that is also just realizing or coming to terms with whatever decision you make, whether it's you chose to go on that trip, instead of saving the money because it was more important for you at that moment, then being okay with that decision is also a part of it because you don't have the guilt now, how you spent the money what you should have did with the money, which then impacts everything else that you do. So I find that that all behaviorally impacts then the success you know, for lack of a better terms of people who are able to reach their goals and still enjoy moment.

Brian Portnoy 25:00

Yeah. And I'll just add in that what you're putting your finger on is just the tension between now versus later. Well, before behavioral finance was the thing, economists for centuries talking about time preferences, and discount rates and things like that, and how we discount the future because, you know, would you rather have $100 right now or $100 in 10 years? Well, you rather have the hundred dollars right now. But you can then come up with, you know, so many versions of that quiz or puzzle and quickly realize that how you make intertemporal trade offs is really complicated. And the mind is not a calculator, which is one of the reasons why finance and economics and money is so intimidating to people because we think we're supposed to play human calculator when in fact, we are on and that's actually not the key to the success. One of the things that I think financial advisors can do well, and I'll do but some can do especially well, which is worth it from, from the individual's point of view is to help them calibrate the trade off between now and later what what you were just articulating. Because it's it's good to have an objective or semi objective, or just another opinion in the room. Preferably not somebody that's part of your family or your best friend, who can say, you know what, this dollar is going to be split up one way or another. And some of its for now, and some of it's for later, what are we going to do? That's not easy to do on your own. So it's good sometimes to have some help.

Jamila Souffrant 26:36

Right, right. And one of the things that, you know, a lot of my audience I feel like is DIY with especially the access to investing platforms and index funds I for one, am a fan of index funds and simple investing, and then I know that I also have a segment of my audience who they hear about index investing and doing it all yourself. But for them, it's just like they still need some guidance. Or like help outside of themselves outside of maybe a podcast and hearing from another source but not personally for their own situation, why they should do this thing? And I think like, you know, money coaches, right, so like, I'm still kind of coach through my platforms, right? In terms of general money, like I'm not taught telling people where to invest their money, but just like how do they manage the goals and the behaviors around money. And then this other side where like, you have the people who are certified to help people invest, and the financial advisors how there needs to be more of integrative approach in helping people make these decisions, because I find that a lot of people will come to me and they're like, well, I actually just, I need help with like, how I think about money and behave with money, like just telling me where to invest is great, but that's not really what the issue is. And so I know that you come from that field. What are your thoughts on people needing the more integrative approach if they need like a financial advisor to help them with investing that they also need the behavioral help too.

Brian Portnoy 27:59

Yeah, I see the real value in the financial advice business being on the behavioral side or on the coaching side. If at this point a financial advisor is making a pitch that he or she can pick better stocks or choose better fund managers or build better portfolios, I would probably, if not walk away, ask some pretty hard questions in terms of evidence for that because generally people making those claims don't have a lot of evidence to support them. The financial advice business to some extent is evolving into a life coaching business. The challenge is that on the one hand, it's super legitimate and normal to have a personal trainer either at home or at the gym or virtually. It's normal and legitimate to have, you know a dietician or someone help you out you know, with with eating properly, but because money is this super emotional difficult topic, having money coach is often awkward for people. And so you know, creating some legitimacy around why this is such a tough topic and why the conversation from a coaching stance can be valuable is a large part of the battle.

Brian Portnoy 29:17

You know, the DIY investment community and more or less DIY guy and I also started my career at Morningstar, which is just a fabulous organization and has always, to some extent embraced sort of low cost diversified index fund investing, which I would advocate for many people. The challenge is people are like, well, I've got access to Vanguard, I don't need help. And I actually think that's a little arrogant and a little, a little bit wrong. For one, the investing pieces the easy, easy piece, yes, you can go build a diversified portfolio relatively cheaply through any number of services or platforms. But first of all, rebalancing that, recalibrate in light of life circumstances, not that easy. And as you get older, with aging parents and growing kids and you accumulate some assets, financial planning, having nothing to do with investing is super important and really complicated. So the idea that people can just do this themselves, I really object to and then the next layer down is, you know, articulating goals and and managing those goals over time. I think everybody needs help on that. If the DIY attitude is, you know, either one, I can beat the market or two, I can't beat the market so I'm just going to own the market. Well, that's fine. And there's usually some bravado that surrounds that attitude, which I don't always enjoy. But it's really not the point. Yes, it's easy and cheap to get broad, diversified market exposure. That is a small piece to the funded contentment puzzle.

Jamila Souffrant 30:56

Yeah, and actually want to highlight something you said about financial planning being more than just the like investing part. Can you just dig a little deeper there? What would that what would a comprehensive financial plan look like for someone other than just investing in index funds?

Brian Portnoy 31:10

Yeah, and even skipping all the squishy purpose stuff and things I find interesting, but really, really important. Money life has multiple dimensions. And so how we earn, how we save, spend, insure, manage other sorts of risks, how we borrow, how we give, giving and being charitable is an enormous section of money life that receives relatively little systematic consideration. We all know it's good to give. And many of us I'm sure you do I know we do. You try to be as charitable as possible, but there are smarter ways to go about doing that. There are different philosophies of doing that. The point is that across all of those areas, earning saving, spending, giving and so forth, there are better and worse ways to do it. There's also a pretty big distinction between between making a decision and forming a habit. This is something that most advisors, let alone clients or investors ever really think about. You know, the brain is a muscle that muscles get tired. And we make so many decisions a day. If we are thinking every day about every money decision, and being good and disciplined, the cake is sitting on the kitchen island and you're just going to resist it every day. At a certain point, you're not going to resist it, you're going to take a bite, if at all possible. We want to turn good decisions into good habits in the same way that none of us really think about brushing our teeth in the morning or the evening it just you do it. It's it's not something that requires mental energy, the ability to form good habits in all of those other dimensions of money life not investing related, super important. And I think the industry is on the ground floor of making that happen. In no small part because Decision Sciences and the science around habit formation is just hitting it's stride right now.

Jamila Souffrant 33:01

Yeah, you know, maybe I'm a little biased because I'm in the personal finance space. But I feel like this is why podcasts and platforms like mine are, I think, popular with people, because it helps to change their habits. You know, that's what helped me honestly, like, get really more aligned and serious about what I wanted to do with my finances was listening to podcasts and kind of like hearing these ideas and how people were actually doing it in their real lives in the day to day management of money. So I think that's just part of why people are so into like the blogs and hearing from people's personal experiences, because they want to understand how do I actually apply this to my actual life? Like what is what what's possible for me and then seeing that through communities, right, like a big change. It's like surrounding yourself with like minded people and people that are on the same journey with you are like, super important.

Brian Portnoy 33:49

Yes, I completely agree. And, you know, historically, behavioral finance has been this fascinating academic study of human decision making. But the problem for decades was that it wasn't particularly practical. It didn't have like, you know, suggestions or tools that came out of it to help people actually make better decisions. And what's exciting is that over the last five, or at most 10 are really five to eight years really on the back of the big financial crisis of '08 and '09, we're seeing more application of some of these ideas in ways that are just really practical for regular people.

Jamila Souffrant 34:29

Yeah. And you know, what are the things and maybe you can help me from a behavioral science point of view on people investing in getting help with their finances or you know, paying whatever for a course a coach or deciding that they're going to pay a financial advisor. I find that like if I were selling a product more based on like making money, or something else, I don't know starting a business that I feel like it'd be easy for me to make money because this promise of making money and showing you how to make money is very, I believe more appealing to people, but when I talk about, okay, let's talk about like maybe budgeting and you know, mapping out a life of financial independence and helping you get to that point, I find that it's a harder sell to people. And I always like we joke like in the personal finance space and more personal finance friends, I'm just like, people don't, they'd rather spend like $2,000 on this course to like, earn this amount of money doing this versus maybe pay a couple hundred dollars, like for coaching or help in this area that would help them you know, not discounting the course that cost $2,000 but to help them like on the ground level to really change their behaviors in the outlook like, I don't know, I find people don't really see the value in that as much. Do you know why?

Brian Portnoy 35:41

Well, it gets back to our now versus later stuff. I'll be less nice or more critical than you if someone's paying thousands of dollars for a how you can make money in fill in the blank. You know, real estate, they're wasting their money, because you just think about the absurdity of someone who has a great investment idea or angle sharing the idea with lots of others, the world is littered with useless seminars like that. But let's kind of go back to the analogy with physical fitness and the various ways in which people decide to get in shape and stay in shape or not get and stay in shape. You know, there's so many ways to skin that cat, you know, could be you play hoops, you run outside or you join a gym. Maybe you have a coach, maybe you have a Peloton. I mean, I think kind of the old school and just kind of think a lot about this now, like the old school hub and spoke notion of financial advice is being challenged in the sense that, Oh, I'm going to go sit with a financial advisor and they're going to help me make great decisions and I'm going to retire comfortably and it's going to be great.

Brian Portnoy 36:49

I think if we take it from the perspective of financial wellness and coaching, instead of making more money and advice, it kind of opens up you. me, many others to just great conversations, who understand that there's a problem and would like some help. There are plenty of forms of physical fitness coaching that I don't want. I just don't want to do that. But there are others that I do. And so for me, you know, as a consumer in that space, I want to go find somebody who might be a great provider of something I think I already want, as opposed to someone trying to convince me that there's a completely different way of doing things. And then I should buy into that, and then in turn, choose them. Now there's a form of selling, notice the solution sale or the challenger sale where you help someone define their problem. And as a result, you end up being their solution, and that's good. And in some cases, it's it's highly ethical. It's an integrity based dialogue. But a lot of the times people want to solve the problem. They think they have not be told that they have a different problem. So that's it. Maybe a reframing of what you've asked, and not really an answer. I do think, for digital natives, people under the age of 40, or even maybe under the age of 45, or 50, who just grew up in a world of having all information at their fingertips. And they know not only about Vanguard and index funds, but also about Acorns, and Personal Capital and Betterment and YNAB (you need a budget) which is great app, you know, they're pretty aware of that whole landscape. In a country of 330 million people, there's going to be lots who need help along along that journey. And not everybody's going to want the same thing because we're all coming from different perspectives in the same way that if you and I showed up at the same gym, and hired the same trainer on the same day, and I'm guessing that we wouldn't have the same routines put in front of us.

Jamila Souffrant 38:59

Right. I love that you were just like, okay, people selling those courses are whatever. But I would like to say just as a caveat that while I didn't use that as an example, I do feel like some of those tactics or strategies right to help people earn more money can be legit. I knew that or I felt like and before I started this journey, in terms of entrepreneurship and having to be my full time thing and turning it into something that can actually sustainably make money that I did find benefit in it. I just want people to get their priorities straight when it comes to that stuff where it's just like, you just want to jump straight to the action to earning or you know, making money in this idea or this thing and you haven't even really covered the basics maybe with understanding how to manage the money you have now kind of thing.

Brian Portnoy 39:46

Right Right. Right. Well gets back to this topic of being rich versus being wealthy. You know, what is the quest for more one is is funding contentment and look wanting more, and the more positive spin is wanting to grow, wanting to achieve your goals? That's pretty awesome. Nothing wrong with that. I mean, that's the source of human progress, right? So like, there's nothing wrong with wanting more. It's a genetically natural instinct. It just should come with some caveats that it's not the end all be all, because we also at the same time, have an instinct for presence and stillness and enough. And the last chapter in The Geometry of Wealth and probably a pretty big writing project in my future is really going to be focused on this rhythm between wanting more and having enough because I think it's too easy. It's a cheap thrill to say that we should all just focus on the fact that we have enough you know, you've a roof over your head, and that's all good. But then there's still something nagging at us. And what's nagging at us is our humanity which is that need for growth in a variety of different ways and that growth could be connecting with with others or that growth could be expressing your craft your passion, but whatever, whatever it is. So we don't want and can't deny that element of our spirit, what we can do is recognize that the need for more and the need for enough exists simultaneously, and they're very much at odds with each other and there creates a tension through our entire lives that we can manage or not.

Jamila Souffrant 41:21

Right? Yeah, such a good point. And you know, one of the lessons I do want to bring up because I thought it was something that is underrated when it comes to tapping into why certain certain people have these ideas are able to follow through with them or seem successful more than others, and is this idea of like adaptive simplicity. And you talked about in the book, I just want to read this quote, it's a mindset that accepts that change and complexity are unavoidable features of daily life, but then responds by embracing the frequent challenge of rolling with the punches and cutting through the noise. Adaptive simplicity is the engine that moves us along the path towards funded contentment. And I was like, Yes. Because it's not that we can avoid the adversity completely, and that people who are successful never had these challenges or adversity, it's how they adapt to them. So I would love for us to talk a little bit about that.

Brian Portnoy 42:14

Yeah,yeah. Thanks. What a brilliant passage.

Jamila Souffrant 42:16

Yeah, who wrote that?

Brian Portnoy 42:18

Yeah, kidding. So, and I'm probably kind of lead voice in the choir here in terms of complaining about noise and complexity in the world. But the fact is that another way to spin noise and complexity is the richness of life like life's rich pageant. And we don't want to live in empty homes with bare walls. So the noise in the mess of life is life. And it comes with color. And it comes with texture, and it comes with contour. And it's a pretty beautiful thing a lot of the times. Meanwhile, that sense of presence and stillness and cleanliness, you know. It's not a surprise that Marie Kondo and her tidying up mindset has just taken off, you know that I don't even know if the magazine still exists Real Simple, which was always ironic to me because it was like 400 pages a month of things that were really not simple. But adaptive simplicity to me is growing or embracing the path from complex to simple in a never ending loop. So complexity is a good thing. For the reasons I mentioned, it's tied to life's rich passion to it's the source of solutions to big problems. Simple is really good too, because we can focus we can feel alive, we can feel light. I think a lot of the action in life is not saying complex as good or bad, simple as good or bad. But I think that we many of us, all of us, to some extent, maybe we need to feel like we're on a path of simplification. So it's neither end of the spectrum that's relevant. It's the process of the journey or the path. It's the process of simplifying of moving from complex to simple, that kind of captures a lot of what we're trying to do for ourselves and to manage, as opposed to just saying things are a mess or things are perfect as they are. I mean, this law of entropy in physics is also applicable to our human lives, which is that things fall apart. Nothing ever stays the same. And if you can't deal with, that, you're going to have a hard time navigating and some people do many people do. And going even further, if you can embrace entropy. What a fun time you're going to have, you know, like, life is going to be an adventure because you know, all of those changes are seen as opportunities as opposed to the disruption of well laid plans.

Jamila Souffrant 44:44

Yeah, and what a time to be talking about this. With so many changes and on the you know, in the economy, and what's going on with the pandemic and how so many people's lives day to day lives and money have changed as a result, and I have no way to diminish any feelings that someone has like that are real for them, to be afraid right now when it comes to money, right and their income, and all those things. And so, I love that we're kind of ending on this note because I do want to just like give people maybe, who are feeling a bit like, I didn't know it was gonna be this bad or I you know, what do I do things kind of seem bleak. And I know a lot of my audience is optimistic, but some just are maybe struggling. Is there any like advice or a way that they can start to frame what's happening for them right now and helping them see certain things as opportunities or being able to come through stronger from this?

Brian Portnoy 45:31

Yeah, I appreciate, you know, it's it is a good way to wrap up because, you know, things weren't great beforehand, in terms of inequality of wealth, and some other, you know, just structural challenges in our society.

Jamila Souffrant 45:43

I actually love that you just brought that up, because we do touch on those type of topics, so we can dig deeper into those things.

Brian Portnoy 45:51

Yeah. I'm happy to just stipulate that there's a better version of America that we haven't achieved and there are a number of ways to get there, what this pandemic has done, unfortunately, is aggravate already existing toxic political conversations. And even worse, it's introduced to the people who could least withstand it, a whole new set of economic challenges. Because at the end of the day, it's fine and wonderful to talk about purpose and meaning and all this kind of stuff. But if you can't have a roof that doesn't leak, and you can't feed your children, the way that they should be fed, and you can't live in a community that's safe enough, all of that kind of goes out the window. And you know, financial wellness is a broad concept. And, you know, there's sort of goal achievement and funding contentment and all that stuff, but there's also elements of just getting by and being safe, and those are more important. Those are more important. It's more important to be safe than it is to achieve your goals. And maybe that's controversial, or maybe that's vague, but we are wired for survival.

Brian Portnoy 47:02

So what I guess I would say, you know, for folks that have found this time to be especially hard is two things. The first is and this just comes from my friends, some friends of mine who were professional psychologists, they happen to work in kind of money world, but recognizing and acknowledging the pain and the suffering, mental suffering, and then not just accepting that, but recognizing that it doesn't define you, and that it's not all of you, and that there is hope. It's just so empowering. I mean, I'm reasonably comfortable in my lifestyle, but stuff happens, as they say. And I kind of keep that in mind. Like sort of, you know, take the blow, take the pain, and then recognize it's not all of you and that there's a way through. In a more practical sense, from a money management point of view. It's never the case in human society. We get a pause, and then a reset, to think about what's really important to us. And I think all of us hundreds of millions of us, maybe billions of us across the planet, are stuck at home. Take the opportunity, take the extra few minutes of quiet if you have and think a little bit more concretely about what this experience has highlighted for you as being truly important, and what might be less important, or at least more negotiable. And then maybe push it even further and think through well. What are the implications of those thoughts for the job that I want for the community that I want to be associated with and so forth?

Jamila Souffrant 48:39

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And like I said, this may come out, you know, maybe I'm dreaming here but everything will be like almost back to normal. We won't be all quarantined and scared to go outside anymore, but even so if not, and we're still kind of in the semi scared place as a society about just venturing outward that we can reflect all of us and get the support, whether it's through listening to podcasts like this reading books, like Brian's book, and reading more and whatever that whatever it takes for you to understand where you are, but then think about kind of things you want in life I think will be helpful. So Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show. This was amazing. tell people where they can where they can find you and what you're working on.

Brian Portnoy 49:23

Yeah, sure. So best way to find me, I have a website called shapingwealth.com and that gives a little bit of insight into the business that I'm building, which does offer financial wellness coaching consulting, for various audiences, for advisors for individuals, for companies. So shapingwealth.com has some of that information. And then there's a very vibrant and constructive and positive financial wellness community on Twitter of all places. The shorthand is for financial Twitter is fin twit, and so my Twitter handle is @BrianPortnoy and Twitter sort of my virtual office and I hang out with kind of hundreds of friends every day talking about everything from Big Picture, What's the meaning of life to how do I rebalance a portfolio during a volatile time? And so please follow me on twitter @BrianPortnoy.

Jamila Souffrant 50:17

Awesome I will actually put all that in the episode show notes and it's funny you mentioned Twitter because I saw that you just followed me and I'm going to follow you back but Twitter moves so fast for me I'm just like I can't I can't keep up. Like I can't formulate my thoughts in short like sentences and then get it out for the conversation it's like done and people have moved on. So I always find that people who are able to like get their thoughts out quickly on Twitter and stay there are just like amazing. Because I'm like I can't. I can't do it. So I just, I just pop in here and there and like scroll a bit, but I'll share all that in the episode show notes. Thanks again, Brian.

Jamila Souffrant 50:56

Okay, journeyers. I really hope you enjoyed that episode that conversation with Brian. We covered a lot. I mean, I could have kept talking to him because there are so many good points in this book. But again, I encourage you to get the book if you want to learn more, listen to the episode again, follow Brian where you can to keep up with his work and what he's doing. I also want you to think about for you what wealth means. I love this idea that we talked about in the episode of funded contentment. And we're like, what's enough? Because ultimately, we all may say we want a number right in the bank account or amount that makes us feel secure. And then you know, you're hear people who have achieved that, who are millionaires who've achieved the things that you want, and they don't necessarily feel secure. They're just going after the next thing. And if you think back to maybe something you've accomplished recently, and how you felt before you got it, you thought that thing would be it right? And it's not like you get it and it's okay. It's like, what's the next thing and I think it's interesting when we think about our goals and what we want about financial freedom and independence, and I think it breaks down to enjoying and figuring out today, how you can reap those benefits because you're going to forever be on a treadmill if you don't understand what contentment is for you. So again, really happy to have had this conversation on the podcast.

Jamila Souffrant 52:13

Don't forget if you want the episode shownotes to get any of the links mentioned in this episode, go to journeytolaunch.com or click the description wherever you're listening to this to get the link to the show notes. And if you want that free jumpstart guide to help you on your financial freedom journey, text launch to 33777 text launch to 33777 to get your free guide today or go to JourneytoLaunch.com/jumpstart.

Jamila Souffrant 52:46

If you want to support me in the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen, whether that's Apple podcasts, that purple app on your phone, your Android device, YouTube, Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen, just subscribe so you are not missing an episode. And if you're happening to listen to this and Apple podcasts, rate review and subscribe there, I appreciate and read every single review. Number two follow me on my social media accounts. I'm @journeytolaunch on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. And I love love love interacting with journey are there three support and check out the sponsors of this show. If you hear something that interests you, sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here. So show them some love for supporting your girl. Four, and last but not least, share this episode this podcast with a friend or family member or coworker so that we can spread the message of Journey to Launch. Alright, that's it. Until next week, keep on journeying journeyers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Jamila Souffrant 00:00

You're listening to the Journey to Launch Podcast How to Create a Life By Design and Combine Creativity and Commerce with Lisa Nicole Bell.

Recording 00:13

Welcome to the Journey to Launch Podcast with your host Jamila Souffrant. As a money expert who walks her talk, she helps brave journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest, and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in five, four, three, two, one.

Jamila Souffrant 00:39

Hey, hey, hey journeyers, welcome to the Journey to Launch Podcast as I always am. I'm really excited to speak to you today. You know episode comes out every Wednesday morning. You may be listening to this in real time, or maybe a few days after, maybe months years after. My goal with this podcast is to keep this content evergreen so it doesn't matter when you listen it's relevant to you. And I think this is going to be one of those conversations that can be replayed at any time because I have on the amazing Lisa Nicole Bell as today's guest.

Jamila Souffrant 01:11

Let me tell you a little bit about Lisa. Lisa is a producer, writer, media personality and serial entrepreneur. Her career melds, creativity and commerce and she uses media and technology to shift and shape culture. As a multidisciplinary creator, she's produced more than 300 hours of content, her work spans scripted, unscripted and digital verticals. She's a creator, executive producer, and she's also the host of the Behind the Brilliance Podcast where I was once a guest. So I'll also link that in the show notes. But she really is such a powerful, brilliant mind. And I've listened to her podcasts and I love how she breaks information down. I love how she summarizes and relates it in a way that it's just like yes, you just get it you you feel inspired to take action to learn more. You'll hear it through our conversations, I'm really excited for you to hear this. On the podcast, we're going to be talking about a range of subjects, you know, I really want you to hone in on whatever speaks to you. But we're going to be talking about creating a life by design. And I think that this is one of the gifts and ways in which when you see people really succeeding at life, it's because they decided to get into the driver's seat, they decided that they were going to decide what happened to them. Regardless of circumstances, they were going to be intentional about the life they created. And I also love that she's able to bridge that gap between creativity and money. So you'll hear she has a very creative mind, and she's done a lot of work in the creative field, but she also makes money. And I think for a lot of people, sometimes it's hard to, you know, passion or money and I think you can do both. And we're going to talk all about that.

Jamila Souffrant 02:46

So, grab a pencil, grab paper, or make sure you're ready to maybe replay this conversation because I think it's going to be that good. If you want the episodes show notes for this episode, go to journeytolaunch.com or you can click the description of wherever you're listening to this episode to get the full episode show notes. Now if you are a new listener to the podcast or an OG journeyer I've created a Jumpstart Guide to help you on your journey to financial freedom. It includes the top episodes to listen to, the stages to go through to reach financial freedom, resources to help you, and so much more. Get it for FREE by texting, launch to 33777 text launch to 33777 or go to journeytolaunch.com/jumpstart to get your guide for free right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode.

Jamila Souffrant 03:08

Okay, journeyers, I have a real special treat. I have Lisa Nicole Bell on the podcast. Hi, Lisa.

Lisa Nicole Bell 03:48

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Jamila Souffrant 03:50

Of course and I am excited to have you on the podcast because I admire your work and we're going to get into what that is. I read your bio before we officially started. And so people kind of have an idea if they don't know who you are already. But what I love about you and your platform, and what you talk about is you bring this multifaceted approach to life and being a black woman at that and break barriers on like what you can do and be. I just feel like when I see what you've done, like even reading your bio, and all the things you've accomplished, and how you approach even with your podcast, interviewing people, because I feel like it's similar in the sense that I don't tap into just one type of person. I talk to whoever I can learn from, and distill that information that I think that you just have a way with living through your life experience, teaching people how to build a life by design. And so I'm really looking forward to talking to you about all the things.

Lisa Nicole Bell 04:45

Yeah, likewise.

Jamila Souffrant 04:48

So you are a self proclaimed and just, I mean, it's in the receipts, you're a serial entrepreneur. So you've started multiple businesses, companies, your film and TV producer, you host a podcast, you have all these things about you, right? And most of them stem from the creative side. And it also allows you to earn money. So I want to talk about that. What did you get to degree in Business Law? Right?

Lisa Nicole Bell 05:13

Yeah, business law.

Jamila Souffrant 05:14

So how did you come from that to being this creative that does all the projects that you do? Like, how did you switch careers at some point? Or how do you find that?

Lisa Nicole Bell 05:22

That's a really good question that I never get. So my inclination, even coming out of high school, and kind of trying to figure out what I was going to do was always that I wanted to be in control of my career, whatever that meant. And I didn't have obviously the clarity then that I have now but I had an intuitive vision about what that might be. And my whole thing was like, whatever I study needs to yield a return. I know that I can decide to do lots of different things and I can always go to grad school and that kind of thing, but like if I'm going to invest the money and the time to go to school to college and do a formal education. I need to come out of college feeling like I can recoup that investment very quickly. So actually started as a political science major, mostly because I just love history and people and all that not because I was planning to run for office. So I would be in these classes and the other students passionate, they were like, no city council needs to do this. And I was just like, Oh, it's not that serious. I just like reading the stories. I like Lisa, you need to move on to something that you feel that passionate about where you're you want to argue and debate with people and all of that. So I thought, Well, okay. When I was thinking about all the different things that I wanted to do, I was like, okay, you could do English, you could do creative writing, you could do screen writing, you could do film. But then what is the long term vision? What is the 20 year vision I was like, well beyond the things that I want to do creatively, like I am an entrepreneur, I I'm a hustler at heart, and I want to make things I want to be able to make things happen. And so I was like, alright, well let me switch to business and see how that goes. Because I feel like that will be useful. And then I fell madly in love. I was like, this is it. Because whether I need to understand marketing for business, whether I need to be able to read my own contracts for personal projects or something else, if I want to be able to invest in real estate, if I want to be able to build a business from the ground up, like everything that I'm learning, in this degree is going to be useful, and the creative magic is on me. But this offers me information and structure to be able to do this in a way that's like organized and professional. So it felt like a good decision and even during the time I was in undergrad, I was doing bit roles and film and TV as an actress. I was booking all kinds of commercials. That was around the time I started my first company and grew it and then sold it shortly after undergrad. So like I just got into this rhythm of like, let's just try and stuff and see what happened. That's how I ended up being a creative who has a business degree.

Jamila Souffrant 08:09

Do you feel like you could pin back to what gave you the confidence in undergrad to pursue that degree? Like you said, You started a company. So I want and so then I want to get to that. And you were doing all these things. And I find sometimes that I had a similar experience where when I was in college, I was very ambitious. So that's what helped me have the vision to buy my first property where people were just like, how did you even I was not thinking about that in college, you know? So, and I can go back to where it came from. Like it was really from seeing my mom and grandma like what they were able to accomplish. I was like, I can do something here like that instilled in me hard work, and I always had this confidence that I can do anything I set my mind to. So can you go back and think about what it is in your upbringing that allowed you in your college years to be so bold?

Lisa Nicole Bell 08:51

Yes, I played sports, most of elementary school and into middle school, and basketball and volleyball. I was playing those Couple of consecutive years and then I decided I wanted to try softball because I was raised on the Atlanta Braves. I loved baseball. So I was like, Oh, you know, I want to try softball. So I tried out for the softball team. I made it. I'm excited. I'm like, Yes. You know, now I'm playing sports year round. This is great. You know, studies have shown that sports are great for self esteem for girls. There were other girls on the team who had played in years prior. This is my first year and the coach was like, Yeah, you're gonna be in the outfield. And I was like, Okay, cool. Like, I didn't know what that meant. But the outfield for girls softball is not the same as the outfield for professional baseball, like the outfield in professional baseball is hype. Like the ball comes out there. They run, they jump, they do things. It's interesting, the team is counting on them. But if you're like fifth grade, and you're playing softball, you're out there counting weeds contemplating the meaning of life like there's nothing interesting happening in the outfield. All the action is on the in field. And I was like, No, no, I'm super good on this.

Lisa Nicole Bell 10:07

So it's the end of my first season, I go to the coach. And I'm like, yeah, I'm all set on being the outfield. I don't want to do that. I want to be the pitcher. And she's looking at me like I grew three head. She's like, what? No, you can't be the pitcher like you've only done one season. You're not that great. You don't have the talent. No, you can't do that. And I was like, you have to let me try out though. And she was like, well, the rules for the little league that we were in, she's like, well, the rules stipulate that if a girl wants to try out for a position, we have to let her but I'm telling you, you're not going to be better than the picture that we have. So you're not going to get chosen and I was like beat. So I go to my dad and I'm like, I want to be pitcher next year. And he's like, Okay, I'm like and I will do whatever I have to do. So I'm going to get up every morning before school, and I'm going to throw 100 pitches. On the weekends on holidays. You and I are going to the batting cages and we're going to the field and we're going to throw pitches, we're going to work on my strike zone, we're going to work on my speed, we're going to work on my arm, all of that and he's like, Alright, I'm in whatever you want to do. I'm going to support you. I work like a maniac. Like I took. I remember getting some spray paint, and drawing like a circle where the strike zone was on the side of our house. And just like getting up and throwing by my mom is like, you can't spray paint the house. Like, I was like, no sis like, no, I got it. This has to happen.

Lisa Nicole Bell 11:35

The following spring rolls around. And it's time like I've put in almost an entire year of work. I've missed out on hanging out with my friends. I've gotten up early and all of that and spring tryouts. Come, tryouts come. I'm in my zone. I'm like, I got this. My arm is a robot at this point. Let's do this. Go to the tryouts with me and this other girl named Crystal. Crystal goes first. Crystal's hitting it and she's doing her thing. She's like doing all of her drills. Great job, Crystal. All right, here comes Lisa and the coaches just like this is so ridiculous. I can't believe we're doing this. I'm like, I don't care, you would have thought that I was in a three piece suit. I was like, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna take my time and do my thing. There throw in the ball. I'm like hitting everything I'm pitching. I'm in the strike zone, Strike, Strike strike. Her jaw is on the ground, because she's like, how is this girl this good? Like she was I didn't even know how is this possible? The following morning, I get a phone call from her. And she's like, first I have to apologize because I underestimated you. But second, you're going to be our pitcher this season. Your tryout was better than Crystal's. And it was better than the other girls who tried out. And so you know, congratulations. And so the lesson there was I can do whatever I decide I want to do if I'm willing to learn what I need to learn and work with As I need to work. So that completely changed my sense of what is possible for me in a way that was self directed, right? Because it's not like grades like, Okay, I'm making C's, and I need to make A's so that I can get off punishment. This was something that I wanted. For me, there was no extrinsic reward for it other than getting to be a pitcher and having the fun of doing that. And so the journey of saying this is something I want to do in four months, no one will even know I'm working on this. I just have to give my my all to it. It was life changing. So that was the thing that I think was an inflection point in the sense that like as an entrepreneur and creative you just do it.

Jamila Souffrant 13:44

Yeah. And it's such a gift. When you have that type of thought process or when you have the ability to see what's not there. Because oftentimes, you know, you're placed in situation you're you're may be born in situations you find yourself where that's just what it seemingly is. There may be something inside of you, you listening right now you're just like, I know, there's more. Like there's something else just there is more for me. And you have to kind of have that vision to say, all right, there's something else and sometimes you see it in other people, which is helpful. So you see someone else that you're inspired by or that's doing something you may be interested in. Sometimes you don't even have that you don't see it, but you know, something else is there and, and just believing that you can possibly do it is like the first step. And I think so many people, anyone that I've talked to that had success in life in any area, whatever that is, whatever that is, it's that it's seeing something outside of who they currently are, and just believing that they have a chance at it.

Lisa Nicole Bell 14:40

That's where it starts.

Jamila Souffrant 14:42

So you said you started a business in college and sold it.

Lisa Nicole Bell 14:44

Yes.

Jamila Souffrant 14:45

Can you talk a little bit about that? So you started being entrepreneur early on and were successful at it?

Lisa Nicole Bell 14:50

Yeah.

Jamila Souffrant 14:50

What was that first business and then why'd you sell it. And then I'm gonna like lead up to all the other stuff that you started to do.

Lisa Nicole Bell 14:56

This company started because I got fired for insubordination. And I called my dad in tears. It was like, they fired me. They said, I'm insubordinate. I like didn't even really know what that meant. And he was like, well, Lisa, you have a specific way you like things done. And if you think you can do it better than they can then you should start your own thing. And he just kind of like I said this off the cuff. And I'm like, you know what, you're right. Not even realizing like what I was getting myself into. But I'm like, Okay, I'm studying business in school. And I've had my share of like, little side hustles and things, why not? So I realize that there is a gap. So in the state of California, they have a different kind of standardized testing beyond the ACT and the SAT they had something at the time called ISEE they had all these other tests. And so this was around the time that like Kumon and Sylvan existed in terms of like tutoring and test prep, but I thought, well, it's fine if you come in and work math problems with Timmy. But there should be a personal development angle. Why are we talking about courage? Why aren't we talking about patience and how those things show up on the playground or at school? So like, I'm going to try this and see what happens. So I just started out doing it myself. And I couldn't believe how much people were willing to pay. Like people were willing to pay $30 an hour. When you're a college kid, that's a lot of money.

Jamila Souffrant 16:24

And this is you teaching their kids?

Lisa Nicole Bell 16:26

Yeah, this is me going in and being like, Okay, I'm going to tutor your kid, because I was like, looking at jobs, regular jobs, and the hourly rate, there was just this weird gap. Because before that I had come from retail. I had been promoted. And they wanted me to become a district manager for a retailer. I had no interest in doing that. I was like, I'm not trying to be vice president or CEO of a retailerdo. This is not my dream. So I was like, this is a job for me, not a career. And they were like, well, it's time for you to move up. And I was like, well, I quit. I mean, I guess if you are college educated or you're a student in college, that's your credentials, but I felt like you don't really have to have any credentials to work with these students. So one day, I'm talking to one of the parents, and she goes, um, you know, I know you come here every day at three, like, I was wondering, you know, one of my friends is also looking for someone, do you have someone else who works with you? And I was like, "Yes, yes, I do."

Lisa Nicole Bell 17:29

I will. By the time we need to do this. The next day in class. I'm talking to one of my friends and she worked at this little juice bar on campus. I was like, Hey, what do you how much do you make at the juice bar? Like $10 an hour? $11 an hour. I was like, check this out. I'll pay you $20 an hour. If you want to tutor this kid in English. She's like, what, I was like, yeah, I'll pay you $20 an hour. She's like, you don't even have the money. I'm like, trust me. I got it. And I'm good for it. But she's like, Okay, give me the address. I'm like, this is how you have to do it. And then after you finished the the lesson, you're going to talk about ambition. Okay? And this is what I want you to say. So I'm laying out my little script for her she like, okay, so she does it and it it goes well. I'm like, alright, that was a $10 margin because I paid her 20 bucks. The family pay me 30 bucks. So I made $10 an hour and I wasn't even there. It was over after that. I was like, Oh, I was doing the Birdman hand rub. I was like, let's go.

Lisa Nicole Bell 18:29

From there. I was just scaling up. I took myself completely out of it. I was like, nope, I'm about to be hiring all these students. And because the other thing was, I was like, look, if you go from working with your regular family to affluent families, we're talking about $70 $80 $90 an hour that they're happy to pay to someone who has expertise. So from there, I scaled the company up and it was one of those things where it reached a point where it was like, okay, we have grown throughout LA County. Starting in the Valley moving on to the West Side, I'm starting to have clients in Santa Monica moving on to Orange County. And I was like, all right, well, is this something that you really want to do? Do you want to be Sylvan? Do you want to be Kumon? Do you want to have locations scattered throughout the country? Like if that's your dream, I was like, No, that doesn't feel like freedom that feels like a prison that feels like waking up in five years, and kind of dreading it and just doing it because it pays really well. And because I can do it in my sleep. That's never what I signed up for. So maybe three or four months after I started to feel that way. I was approached by this company that was just kind of buying up business assets. And they were like, you know, we're interested in making an investment. And I was like, Well, I'm not taking investment money right now because I'm trying to figure out how to get out like I'm looking forward to so I can remove myself from this because at that time, I thought, I'm going to bring in a CEO, I'll be President this will just be a passive income vehicle, I'll move on to something else. They were like, well, you know, we'll cut you a check for like, well, we'll acquire it. And I was like, uh, yeah, the numbers worked for where I was at the time. And so I offloaded it and felt really good about it. At the time, I didn't even really have context for like, you're having an exit. It was just like, I built a thing, and it was valuable. And this is my transition out.

Jamila Souffrant 20:27

So you have to disclose exactly the amount but was it kind of like money where you didn't have to work for a while? Or more just good seed money for something else?

Lisa Nicole Bell 20:35

Yeah. It was like, waking up, and then being like, well, what am I going to do now? Because for a lot of people, they think they want money, they think they want an exit. They think, oh, if I had a lot of money, I would do this and this and this. But it's like once you come into a large sum of money, you get revealed to yourself because if you're not super self directed and thoughtful, you will end up lacking purpose. It's fun the first couple of weeks because it's like a really expensive spring break. You know, you take a trip somewhere exotic, you go to Hawaii or something. You buy toys, you spend money on silly things. But then after that, you know, as a human being, you need to be doing something constructive in order to feel purposeful. So yeah, it was definitely enough money to take time off. But what I quickly learned was that I don't do well with being in a vacuum like that, like me taking six months off to just kind of do nothing is not really my jam. Unless I plan that of like, I have planned that these three months I will not work. This is a sabbatical. I'm going to sleep late. I'm going to eat pancakes, whatever that is. But yeah, the first maybe six weeks I was just kind of playing and goofing off and enjoying the freedom but I quickly was like I need to do work because I like to work. You don't point unless you enjoy it.

Jamila Souffrant 22:00

Yeah. So how did you choose then the next thing to do? What was your next step? Did you take some of that money and start something else?

Lisa Nicole Bell 22:07

I took that money and started investing. Because I was just like, I didn't understand the markets the way I do now, I didn't understand how the various streams of income worked. And so I was like, now I have a little bit of money to play with, I have time to play with. And I was putting money in my own projects. I was like, I want to do some theater stuff. So I wrote directed and produced a show that went up here, three sold out weekends, NAACP theater award, that whole thing. So that was really gratifying and then put money into a digital docuseries called The American Dream revised and then license that to Procter and Gamble. So it was like, now I have more control, which was always the attention freedom and control because I have money. So if I want to go to someone else and raise money for whatever I'm doing great. But if I want to be in a situation where I don't have to answer to anybody, I get to do exactly what I want to do how I want to do it. It's nice to have money to do that, and to not have to eat ramen in the process. That was really the approach I took. And then we have a vision and we think we know exactly what we want to be doing. But oftentimes, we don't really until we do it. You know, that's how sometimes people's manifestation of their dreams is very anticlimactic. Because they're like, I worked so hard, I finally got it. And this is not how I thought it would feel. This is not what I thought I would be doing with my time. So during those following years, I was very intentional about like, I'm just going to try this on for size. I don't know if I'm going to like it. But the bet is small enough that if I don't, it's just a lesson learned. It's not like why I invested 10 years and millions of dollars trying to do this. So it was a lot of like, I call them learning bets just like little tests of like, do I like working with large groups of people in a leadership capacity. Do I like working with large groups of creative people? What do I want my multiple income stream configuration to look like? Yeah, it was just a lot of learning.

Jamila Souffrant 24:11

Do you feel like because you knew you had money saved up from the sale, that you could take those risks in those look like smaller learning bets? Would you have done let's just say you never created that company. But you still had that, you know, all these things you want to do and try out? How would you have approached it, then you would have been different in terms of how much risk you took, or how you went about it for some people maybe listening that says, well, I have a lot of things I want to do. But you know, I don't necessarily, I don't have like a fallback plan or a fallback money. If this fails kind of thing. How would you say they should approach that or how would you have approached it differently?

Lisa Nicole Bell 24:45

Yeah, this is gonna sound counterintuitive, but when you have nothing, that's the best time to make bets because there's nothing to lose. Having a little bit of money is really a gift and a curse because if you didn't grow up wealthy, you don't assume you will always have money. And so you get a little bit and you're like, let me hold on to this, like, I'm not spending any money, because I don't know when the next things come in and all of that you can quickly slip into this weird scarcity mentality before you realize it. So I think part of it is realizing that bets can be made at all scales. No a $500 bet $100 bet is every bit as good as a $5,000 bet. So part of it is like the size and understanding that if the test you want to run or the bet you want to make takes seven grand, and you got two grand and scale it down to two grand. And I did that. I mean, I could have made a project for $300,000. And I was like, No, we're gonna make this project for $30,000. So what do I need to adjust and shift in order to make this fit what I have decided the budget will be so there's that part of it, but the other part of it was that during the time that I was in college, I had been broke. It's a weird thing. I think a lot of life middle class and upper middle class people will relate to this, where it's like you come from a stable environment, you have family that has money, even if they aren't necessarily wealthy. You didn't want for things growing up, but then you came into your early adulthood and like you broke, like, broke broke for a period of time. I think it's character building. You know, I know a lot of people are gonna be like, no, sis it's not, but I feel like for me, it was a because what it showed me was, I'm okay, I'll be okay, I'll be broke, I won't be able to pay bills. And I'll call people that don't have it. Let's create a payment plan, or I'll pay you when I get it. But like the people who are not going to come and choke you to death, if you can't pay the bills, like if your credit score goes down 20 points. It's not the end of the world it can come back. So it just gave me a certain resilience and optimism in that if you hit rock bottom, the only other place to go is up. So why would you not take that bet it's safer to take the bet and to not take it and so that became my philosophy is like if I lose every dollar, I have so what? Money, you can get more of. Time you cannot.

Jamila Souffrant 27:05

Right? And that allows you then to take risk at all scales. When you determine the scale, you want to take the risk. So I spoke to Brian Portnoy yesterday. And I know So guys, I don't know when this episode comes out if it comes before, after Brian's episode, but Brian wrote the book, The Geometry of Wealth, and actually saw you posted at least on your stories about it. So I was like, oh, what is Lisa reading? Let me check that out, bought the book, love the book. And then so I interviewed him, and he has something in there. I mean, he has a lot of great concepts in there. But the other thing was just like, it's not that you'll ever escape failure or things going wrong. It's not that it's going to happen to people that expect it to happen, and can adapt as necessary. Not that they're trying to like be risk free, but just manage the risk will succeed in life. And I think that's the same that way with your finances, your career, all of it is intertwined together, right? Like things will not go as planned may go wrong. And if you're expect it to just all be laid out perfect. And roses. That's not it. And if you can find the lessons from whatever situation you're in, even if it's like Jamila is here talking about financial independence, I'm just trying to like pay off this debt that I can't even like manage. It's just like, what is the lesson there? So I just wanted to like, throw that in there because I thought it definitely relates to what you just said.

Lisa Nicole Bell 28:22

Yeah, that's a brilliant point, we can very easily get caught up in comparing where we are to where someone else is, and feeling like, we can't do anything because we can't do what they can do. But this is why I'm always saying I mean, as cheesy as it sounds, that gratitude is the gateway to abundance. Because when you are grateful you become more aware of what you have. And really achieving your own version of success is not about replicating what someone else has done, or lamenting, not having what they have. It's like, well, this is what I have. So what can I make with this? It's like being on an episode of Chopped, where it's like, this is what's in my basket. What can I make and, and the thing about it is it forces creativity, it forces resilience, it forces resourcefulness, but more importantly, it forces you to value who you are and what you bring to the table, which is important for creating authentic success.

Jamila Souffrant 29:15

I love that love that. So you do different types of projects. Now I you know, so I want your website it's like, across all spectrums, like movies, TV shows digital stuff. How do you choose the stuff that you work on? Right? Do you follow passion, like something that you're excited about? Or you're forward looking to the return on it? Is it a balance and thinking more deeply when people are due that you have limited resources or time when they're thinking about things that they should pursue? Is it following passion? Or following what's the best return on their money kind of thing, what what leads you to the decisions you make with the projects you choose?

Lisa Nicole Bell 29:52

So I'm really big on decision making framework because I feel like particularly for multi hyphenates it's very easy for you to just be all over the place here, just multi hypenates who are all over the place, but also, you can end up starting a lot of projects and never finishing, because you have shiny object syndrome, and you're just all over the place. So this is why when people like it seems like she's always I'm like, no, I'm not going to run a Google search I finished when I started. Right? I might have a lot of projects, but I go from soup to nuts. And then I move on to the next thing. Also, I'm very clear about my aptitude and my talents. So in some cases, you know, there may be a project where I'm like, I'm just a producer here. I'm not this is not my lane to be writing or doing anything else. It's my job to give everyone else the tools they need to make this happen. And in other cases, I'm like, you know, you take something like the podcast where it's like, no, I'm the host. I'm the Executive Producer, because it makes sense for me to host this. This is a place where I shine. It's a skill that I have.

Lisa Nicole Bell 30:59

So I think that's first thing like in terms of like self awareness, you have to know what you're great at. Not good at, not want to be better at, like, what are you great at? Where do you add the most value? Because when you're honest with yourself about that, a lot of projects filter themselves out because they're just not right for you. But I think that creativity and commerce can coexist it's not necessary to say, Well, I want to make a lot of money. So I have to go do something boring and uninteresting, and safe. And it's also unwise to say, Well, I'm going to follow my passion and do what I love. It's really important. And this is part of why I love having a business degree because I had to take managerial accounting, and I had to take price theory and things that forced me into thinking about how things scale, not that everything has to scale. But if this wasn't at a scale, what would that look like? And getting down to the nitty gritty of the economics of everything, because if you create a project and say, you know what, I'm not doing this for money, like this is a passion project. And I just want to do this because I care about it. Here's how much time I'm going to allocate to it. That's a personal decision. But if you're doing that with no awareness of what it cost you to create that thing, then you're hustling backwards. So I always start with like, where can I add value? Is this right for me in terms of what I do? Well, then it's if this fails, what is the worst case scenario? Would this be ruinous to me? Would it just hurt my ego a little bit? You know, that kind of thing. And at the very least, will I meet or connect with people who I can work with in the future? You know, even if this doesn't work out?

Lisa Nicole Bell 32:40

But the other thing is like, what if this goes really really well? What if this goes viral and turns into this huge thing? Is that something I want? Am I okay with my role in this if this becomes bigger than I anticipate, because we think about like, Oh, I mean, I'd be embarrassed if this fails, but like, are you going to be okay if it's really successful, because that's thing that that's there also. So there's those things and then I'm a person who gets really specific with the numbers. Like, if you know how much money you say you want to be making every year, then you should have $1 amount assigned to one hour of your time. And so it should be very easy to do the math and say, alright, this is about how many hours this project is going to take. And then you add 30%, because like you said, things never goes as planned. Because when you start to look at those numbers on paper, it becomes very sobering. When you're just like, you know what, I think I'm gonna write a novel. Like, are you really want to run the numbers on that real quick? Because once you do, you have to ask yourself how bad you want that like, and not on some like, well, this is my pie in the sky dream, but like, does this make sense? Yes, creatively, I might be leaning toward doing this. But does this make sense? And if I decide to make still make that decision in that investment, that's okay. But I did it with an awareness of what's going on, not three years from now looking back realizing that I'm broke by my own hand.

Jamila Souffrant 34:06

Okay, I love that informed decision making, because you can have a project or something you want to do like writing a novel, and understand the time commitment, the cost, the opportunity cost, given up on the other things you can't do because of writing that novel, and look forward and say, Well, if this does not succeed in the way I want, Will I still be okay? Because then if you only expect that it will succeed which you know I definitely believe in, you know, making sure you're visualizing success, but also just being realistic. Like if this doesn't work, what's the worst that can happen? Will I still be okay with the product? I think that's the key to like, will I still be proud of the product that this produces. Will I, or the person that I became doing this product? Is it worth it? It was and most time well, for me when I think about it in that way. It's like yes, it was worth it even without the monetary gain. But let's be real sometimes the monetary gain is the biggest thing for people.

Lisa Nicole Bell 34:58

That matters. Yeah, you make an error. Excellent point, because sometimes the reason a project fails is not through your own doing or your own lack of talent. It's timing. It's other people. I mean, you know, think about all the people who were on the brink of something magnificent and then COVID-19 happened. It's like, that's beyond anyone's control or expectation. So yeah, that's an excellent point.

Jamila Souffrant 35:20

Yeah. And then you think about that creativity is born from times like this. So I think you mentioned the series already, but I saw that you produce them The American Dream, Revise the Dream Series. And it was like done after the 2008 kind of recession, about entrepreneurs, and how they had to be creative. And I was like, well, that could just like, be popped over again into this situation about, you know, people like it's the same story again. For entrepreneurs, I have, you know, a vast amount of type of people who listen to this, some are working in a career for someone else, totally fine. Some are entrepreneurs or want to be entrepreneurs have a side hustle. The creativity side, I feel like is great like sometimes I feel like then it's pressure though, like I'll have to be so creative, to break through the noise and to stand out and to make money. Versus I just need to do this well and you know, have a purpose like how, like for you now even what the things that you're choosing to do or not to and what you envision the kind of opportunities that come for this. What does an entrepreneur someone who wants to be an entrepreneur like do in these times with their ideas?

Lisa Nicole Bell 36:24

My answer now has changed. At the time when I started my entrepreneurship journey entrepreneurs weren't rock stars. It wasn't sexy. It wasn't, you know, memes on Instagram and all of this. It was it was just work. It was gritty. It was all nighters. It was it wasn't glamorized the way it is now. And so my entree into the space was very pure. It was because I cared I was passionate, I wanted to hustle. But now I think a lot of people are doing it because it seems like the right thing to do. It looks sexy. They want to be on planes. They don't want to work for anybody. else's kind of thing. But I think first it's like, again, that thing of like temperament, being honest with yourself, because it takes tremendous like herculean levels of discipline to be a good entrepreneur to work for yourself. And I don't think people realize that they think, well, I get to wake up whatever time I want every day, girl, I wish I could do that. But they're like, I don't want to work for other people and work for myself. And it's like, but do you realize that if you woke up literally every day, with nowhere that you had to be, you don't have to, no one's going to come find you. No one's gonna call and ask you where you are. You're not going to get points. You're not going to get docked. You know, there's not going to be an immediate consequence for it. Most people don't have the discipline to say, I'm going to wake up I am going to brush my teeth. I am going to eat. I'm going to structure my day. I'm going to plan it out. I'm going to work for 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 hours that day.

Lisa Nicole Bell 37:58

Oh, what happened instead? Every day, and I have three things that I didn't finish this week, well guess what we're doing Saturday morning, working, no, we're not going to brunch we're working. And then we will find other time for all the other things we want to do. It's a level of discipline that most people do not appreciate. So that's the first thing is like being honest with yourself about how much self control you actually have. After that, though, I think it's being clear about your intentions, because I think a lot of people are honest with themselves, they just want to be poppin. You know, like, they want to be popping on the gram. They want all the people who doubted them to be wrong. You know, it's like these kinds of things that you become a prisoner of if you are not careful.

Jamila Souffrant 38:44

Yeah. And don't offer a return on money either because you can be poppin on the gram and you're not getting paid.

Lisa Nicole Bell 38:48

No Return on it. Or you know, or you know, because it's become so glamorize. They're seeing how sexy and fun It looks. But that's marketing. Okay. A lot of these entrepreneurs who may have had a business who were like, now I'm going to do retreats and speaking engagements and books and stuff. That's marketing. Of course, they have to make it look glamorous. How else would they rope you in? If they told you that they have international clients, and they sometimes have to get up at 330 in the morning to do an hour long call with them. And I'm not talking about 330 to ride to the airport. I'm about 330 turn your brain on to have an intelligent conversation. You don't want to do it because that doesn't sound good. That's not fun. If they told you that they were in the red for the first four years of their business, okay, they couldn't buy their family Christmas gifts and people ridiculed them. They wouldn't tell you that. If they told you that they drove the same car for 10 years old raggedy car that you hear coming from down the block because they were putting all their money into their business. You wouldn't do it. So they have to create these really dramatic stories and it has to look sexy and fun.

Jamila Souffrant 39:59

Yeah. I want to just hop in there because what people do though is that when they do make it, quote, unquote, from all appearances, they will relate back to those struggle days and moments so that they can relate to the people in those painful moments themselves. Like, oh, I struggled. I was broke poor and couldn't pay my bills. And look at me now kind of thing which, listen, I'm not trying to like down anyone who's like, marketing like that, because that's actually I think, smart. Because you know, if that's your story, and you've been able to come from that.

Lisa Nicole Bell 40:27

Yeah.

Jamila Souffrant 40:28

You have something you can teach someone. Right, but I just wanted to pop that in there.

Lisa Nicole Bell 40:31

Yeah. 100%. One hundred percent. So I think the thing is that, like you were saying earlier, things will go wrong. That doesn't stop just because you've become quote, unquote, successful. And you were in Forbes and you got to go to this, this TEDx talk about this sense of like, wow, something that I wanted to happen didn't happen, does not stop. I call them platinum problems or champagne problems, you do start to have more sophisticated problems and problems that other people people wish they had, but there are problems nonetheless. So I think that's really important. But the other thing is to remember that entrepreneurship and business and startups is not about your ego. It's not about becoming a billionaire. It's not about magazine covers, it's solving a problem. And when you are intentional about solving a problem for a group of people, there's a level of passion that comes with that. And when you start to lean into that, all kinds of interesting things bloom. So I think right now, more than ever, that's what's most urgent is like, are you solving the problem because now we're in a space where everybody's hyper aware of money, everybody's hyper aware of work. So a lot of the luxury is nonsense that people wanted to entertain before they want now. So either you are truly solving a problem and addressing a need and a desire or you are not and the market will quickly tell you that so it's kind of forcing people to be honest I think.

Jamila Souffrant 42:01

Right and it's important to note that you can have this entrepreneurial mindset at a job working for someone can still solving your boss's problem and see your clients problem within that structure too.

Lisa Nicole Bell 42:13

Yeah, intrapreneurship is a thing. And also like, to me, if you have a job that you love, and you also happen to have a side hustle or some other thing that you do that generates income, that's a great place to be. Don't let these people have you thinking that if you're not a full time entrepreneur, you're doing it wrong. It's not necessary, because the goal is freedom. And that means something different for all of us. It also realize that some of these people wish they could get a job, but they can't. Entrepreneurship so they have to do not that they want to do.

Jamila Souffrant 42:46

So true. And that's why I fell in love with the concept of financial independence, retire early the movement, because it showed me another way that you could become a millionaire become rich and it may take a little longer if you doing it through a job where you get you're getting paid. And so it's like a cap on the money and over time, but you just really intentionally saving and investing. But it's like, oh, I can reach freedom in this way too. It may take a little longer or not, you know, if I want to start my own business, but it's possible, I think for a lot of people, even if it's not that ultimate, I've saved and invested enough money, I don't have to work again. But the steps that it takes to get there, like the paying off the debt being more intentional, like all that will unfold anyway on the path. So it puts you in a better position.

Lisa Nicole Bell 43:29

100% because at the core of it, it's like if you have multiple streams of income, you don't have to be a full time entrepreneur to do that. There's so many things that you can do, you can be a startup investor, and have a full time job. So yeah, I think is really important too. And I mean, the quarantine has really forced a lot of self reflection. But it's really important to say, Well, what do I want? What is my vision? How do I make that as interesting and sexy as I want it to be? Because the other thing is a lot of the people who are posturing don't even have that it the way you think they have it, they don't. It's not what you think it is. It's like it's a story. It's an image. It's being woven for specific purposes. So, yeah, this is why, you know, I harp on values a lot. Because when you know what your values are, and you are living in a way that's aligned with them, a lot of the FOMO and the anxiety of am I doing enough and cool enough? Am I hanging with the right people, that stuff melts away because you have a sense of peace with yourself because you're like, you know, I'm waking up every day. My habits are aligned with what I say is important to me. And I'm doing something that's meaningful. So the rest of it is just icing.

Jamila Souffrant 44:38

Right? Love that. And so you have a passion for teaching about lifestyle design. We were talking about it essentially here, right? So I do want to take a step back and just talk about lifestyle design right now. So if someone's like, alright, living my life, and they talk about this lifestyle design, and but what is that, like? How can someone be more intentional about their life, their career, their money intertwining it at all waking up and feeling like they have more control.

Lisa Nicole Bell 45:04

Yeah, I mean, most people I think are living life as it has happened to them, not as they have designed it. So my obsession with lifestyle design started because shortly before I sold my first company, I discovered personal development. The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale was the first personal development book I ever read. And after that, I was like, What is this? Oh my god, where's this been my whole life? And so from there, I just was like, well, why is it that some people seem to live these very happy and fulfilled lives and other people don't? Like is it that some people just are more deserving is like, no, that can't be it. And I began to realize that it's it actually comes down to a series of choices, because I used to listen to some of Tony Robbins talks and be like, this dude is crazy. Like, oh, this is not it can't be used. It's just a decision. It just comes down to a decision. Like, yeah. Well, what I started to realize was like, if somebody's fit, you know, they have like, snatched waist and the curves. And it's like, well, how did this person get this? Well, first they decided that that was what they wanted. They're going to be certain things about a person's life and about their experience that are just serendipitous blessings. You know, you're just grateful for that. But for a lot of things, especially the people that we admire as being successful, they've been incredibly intentional about saying this is what I want. I had a girlfriend a few weeks a few months ago, actually when the who was like, Oh my goodness, Lisa, if I had your body I would never work clothes like you. You always look so snatched and you did and I was like, okay, she's like, Okay, so what do I need to do? Like, okay, well, I need to work out five days a week, using 100 ounces of water every day. All these little trips to Jack In the Box and this nonsense. You have cut all that out. You need to start cooking your own meat. She was like, I can't do all of that or I don't know, how do you find that motivation, there is no motivation. It's discipline, discipline picks up where motivation leads off. So that's an example of something where it was like, I want to look a certain way. And there's a price you have to pay to do that. There's there's nothing more to it than that it is get the information, execute consistently. That's it. So when we think about wellness, we think about relationships, we think about career, we think about money, that's all that it comes down to. It's like, decide what it is that you want. Execute, right, go get the information and execute. The thing about it is we live in an age where the information that you want on practically anything that you want to do is available, and you could do the $15 book version, or the 1500 dollar bootcamp version, everything in between. So the other thing is like sometimes when people discover this, they think, wow, I got to overhaul my whole life. Okay, I'm about to switch up my hair routine. I'm about to get married in two years, and it have kids, it's like, hold on, you can't do all of it at once. Right? Because you do have bandwidth mentally and emotionally. So figure out what's most urgent. And the thing about habits is like, once you develop the habit of, say, working out consistently, that's a, there's a transference there, saving becomes easier because the muscle of doing what you need to do, whether you feel like it or not, is a lot stronger. And so then you get to a cruising altitude with fitness, you're like, I don't have to think about it anymore. I know that on Friday, I'm going to the gym. That's it. You're like, I need to be putting away $500 a month, $1,000 a month into my savings. I'm going to automate it so that there's nothing to think about. The money that I have in my account is what's left for me to use. And you apply those principles to every part of your life. And before you know it, you look up and you're like, I was pretty damn good. Like I did something I'm proud of.

Jamila Souffrant 48:55

Yeah, and like you said, it's being so intentional and being willing to also enjoy the process while it may be hard, and there's things like I picked up running now, and I just like, I don't like it. I'm just like, why do people run as soon as I start running, I'm just like, this is so dumb. And so my husband like, we go running and like, he just, you know, he's always like passing me. I'm just like, whatever. But I've realized, though, that I actually do like, like on below, I like it, because if I hated it, I wouldn't do it. And I like the results of it. And I like that it pushes me and all these things. So I find that sometimes Yeah, you're not necessarily in joying it but you deep down need to find some sort of joy in it. Because you don't so any process or any goal that you're trying to reach whether money goals, career goals, body goals, all that there'd be some sacrifices, but I find that the people who actually get the results and feel good, like they're actually enjoying the sacrifices.

Lisa Nicole Bell 49:54

Yeah, no, you're 100% right. I mean, this was one of the things I said to the friend. I was like, um, she's like, Well healthy food doesn't taste good I was like, sis this is why seasoning exists there's seasonings other than salt that you can put on things that makes them delicious. So that's a good point because even the the treasury of the things that we want can be made more pleasant relative to our personality and you know, I'm like you it was like, for a long time I thought well, I just have to do hours and hours on the treadmill if I want to be in shape, and then I discovered weightlifting and I was like, oh snap, like this I enjoy. This is getting me where I need to go like, I only have to do hit cardio twice a week and I can be snatched, perfect game on like, I'm willing to go and lift three, four days a week if it means I don't have to do a ton of cardio so it's like you got to find the configuration that works for you. And not just think well if I don't want to do it this particular way then I quit I just be fat.

Jamila Souffrant 50:48

Right? Perfect. It's keep you it's keeping on trying different things. Not giving up. If something is not for you. It doesn't you don't like it. Because the cool sets if I if I didn't really not, did not enjoy running Find something else like to do that helps me get to that goal. Okay, so for Lisa now, how do you manage money? Or what's your financial goals? So I know we first connected I was on your podcast and talked about financial independence and all that. But is that a goal that you are working towards? It's something you've already accomplished. But for you, you enjoy working. So you're working and where are you right now on the journey to financial independence?

Lisa Nicole Bell 51:22

I feel super fortunate and that, like there's money for the things that I want to do, and you'll be able to relate to this. It's such a weird place when you have passive income streams that cover your lifestyle because you're not working for money anymore. That point like the way you go about even managing money changes. So now it really is like, okay, there's an amount of money necessary for me to function and exist, but then there's an amount of money that allows me to give very generously to causes I care about That's where I'm going now. That's where I'm thinking now about like legacy and impact. And so I'm ramping up my passive income streams, because I'm like, that's the way I'm going to be able to get there. Also, because I just am addicted to being able to choose things for myself, and being able to say no to things that I feel like are not the right fit. I may have other strategic reasons for making a decision, like, Okay, I'm going to do this, but not for the money for something else. I like that. Because it means that I don't have to be on the treadmill of, well, how am I going to pay my utility bill? If I don't do this, I have to do this. I have to do this. I would like to be in a to remain, I should say in a situation where it's like, Hmm, this could lead someplace interesting, because sometimes distractions are opportunities. You know, it's like, this is a possibility. But you can only fully explained that if you've got money in the bank. So it's important to me to make maintain my passive income streams. And this idea that you're not incurring additional liabilities until you have an asset that can pay for it. That's, again, a level of discipline that is not easy to achieve. But I'm there, you know, like, there's stuff where I'm like, oh, I should get that. And I'm like, oh,

Jamila Souffrant 53:21

So what's an example of that? Like something that you're like, Oh, I should have got, I want that, but it's just not a smart move right now.

Lisa Nicole Bell 53:27

So here's a great example. I was thinking that I wanted to buy a Porsche Macan right. And first of all, I'm a hardcore SUV junkie. I love SUVs. They're my jam. So it was like, okay, of all of the SUVs I could buy, like, which one will I choose? And I was like, well, what is the happy medium between the luxury that I want? That I know I can't afford? And in this decision? Because the other thing was like, Alright, from a standpoint of buying a car outright, you know, like, I have a personal hang up with buying brand new cars off the lot because of depreciation. So I'm like, not gonna happen. So like, Okay, if I want to pay cash for a car, or if I want to, like let's say I want my credit score to go up even higher, and so I want to finance part of it and make a huge down payment and then make payments on time and now I'm in the eight hundreds and that kind of thing. I was like, Alright, how do I manipulate the situation to fit my goals? I found a luxury car that I was like, Oh, this works like I like this a lot. And perhaps more importantly, if I buy this car, I will not have regrets about it. I will feel happy I will walk to it and go hey, let's go! Instead of being like, oh God, like I'm gonna park around the corner and walk like it. You know, it was like the happy medium between those two things, but the gap. The reason I'm bringing it up there is an example of the gap in price was about $20,000, which, on its face is not a ton of money depending on where you are, especially when you're thinking about the life of the loan. But at the same time, I wanted to buy more investment property at that time. So I was like, is this is a mobile home, this is the down payment on a property in a certain part of the country. This is rehab costs for house that you may buy, like, like we were saying earlier, like going back to the opportunity cost. Sometimes people think that once you make a certain amount of money that that goes away, like oh, I'm just gonna be spending money like water I'll be in Balenciaga balling out. It's like, no, not if you're smart. Because every time you achieve another milestone, there's still further for you to go. And so, yes, you will have nicer things. But if you're smart, you're not going to be frivolous with your money because at the end of the day, it's not really how much money you make. It's what you keep.

Jamila Souffrant 55:58

Yeah, and it goes back to when you don't have a lot, this is your training ground. So if you find yourself where it's like, I'm not where I want to be financially, there's money out, I want to make more money, decisions you make now with what you have now will set you up and train you to be better with the money that is going to abundantly come to you. Okay, I have to ask this question, because you talked about passive income streams, and you alluded to property. So can you explain just what your passive income streams are? Because I know people are like, okay, so Lisa is doing it, and she has passive income streams, like, what are the things so I can try to do those things, too.

Lisa Nicole Bell 56:28

Yeah. So there's royalties. years ago, I wrote a book and then created an anthology called the Legacy Letters. And then I turned that into a live show. So the anthology itself is a physical book. And going back to our conversation about scale, I was like, Okay, I could be out here, you know, hustling and hawking these books $12 to $15 at a time, or I could go to organizations and say, I'll sell these to you. In quantities of 5000. So that was the approach I took to that. And it's one of those things that you create once and then you get paid over and over again for. So that's one of them. And there's the licensing of content. So one of the cool things about having a body of work is that you end up with all of this intellectual property. And a lot of times people are kind of like, well, that's over. There's nothing I can do with that now. But, for example, when I created a licensing deal with Procter and Gamble, you know, when I put that deal together, I was like, You got 12 months, and then you have to renew that. And if you don't, that reverts to me, and I get to license it to someone else. So I periodically sit down and go through the library, and I'm like, What are the licensing opportunities here? Because there's literally no cost to it, aside from an attorney putting together a contract.

Jamila Souffrant 57:49

These are projects you've already done that people still want to use for content.

Lisa Nicole Bell 57:53

Yes. So that's another good point. Because at the time when I was creating them, I wasn't necessarily thinking about them being evergreen. But it is important that if you are a content creator, that you if a lot of your stuff is very current, make some stuff that's evergreen make some stuff that in 10 years will still be relevant because it does become an income stream if you structure it correctly. So there's that there's residuals from film and TV stuff. That's just deal structure of like, sometimes people want to pay you a lump sum, and then that's it. They got the rights forever. And it's as simple as saying, no, I'd like 5% on whatever the net is that comes from this. So that kind of stuff, then yeah, the real estate investment properties of just like you, I mean, you know how that goes where it's just like, alright, I'm doing my landlord dance or you bring in your management company and that kind of thing. I think a lot of it is that sometimes artists think that starving is something that's that has to be inherent to their process or that if they are not actively working, if the phone is not ringing, that means that it's everything's drying up, but it's like that, that doesn't need to be the case. You know a little bit of thoughtfulness, a little bit of betting on yourself in terms of how you structure your deals can mean passive income for a very long time. So there's that and then I just got into peer to peer lending.

Jamila Souffrant 59:20

Okay, yeah, Mm hmm.

Lisa Nicole Bell 59:22

I'm excited to see how that goes. And then of course the markets I lost money like everybody else recently and I just didn't look I was like you know, I'm just my way of coping with this is to not look so like from March to May I just was like, I'm not just let's just pretend like it's not happening and then tapped in.

Jamila Souffrant 59:46

Yeah, night I agree with not looking if you don't have to, because it's going to do what it does anyway. So basically, you have diversified income streams. And part of I think this is the last like point I want to make and then I would just love for people to find out where they can follow you and learn more about you. But also, as part of this now, your net work, who you know, and you know, the right people to approach in the right companies, because I might have this idea for finance, like curriculum or program or for a company. And it's like, all right, what do I start? Like? What company is most going to be receptive to this? And then if I even know the company, who am I going to approach in the company? Like, you know, like, I think that would have a big part to do with it too, right?

Lisa Nicole Bell 60:28

Yeah, I mean, I've always been a person who believed in building a network and nurturing a network, and one that is diverse. I think this is part of why I've been able to do things across different verticals, with relative ease is because if I meet someone, and it's not immediately obvious to me how I could work with them or help them or they could help me, I still stay in touch. It doesn't have to be transactional right away in order to be valuable, and there's been times where I've met someone, two years go by and it's just kind of like how how you doing, how are your kids doing? And that's the extent of it and then something comes up and it's like, Oh, you know what I should reach out to so and so because the other thing that happens is that the world is actually a very small in terms of people who are successful. And so even if the person you're talking to isn't the person, they might know the person, they may be two degrees from the person. So I'm very much into keeping my fences mended, keeping people updated on kind of what I'm doing what I'm looking for, because sometimes people know each other that you're like, how do y'all know each other? So um, yeah, I think that that is a part of it. Any successful person's job, no matter what field you're in, whether you work in a job and have a career or you're an entrepreneur, relationships are a form of currency for sure.

Jamila Souffrant 61:47

Yes, yes. Love that. Okay. Lisa, where can everyone find you keep up with you? All the things.

Lisa Nicole Bell 61:55

My digital home base is LisaNicoleBell.com. L-I-S-A-N-I-C-O-L-E-B-E-L-L dot com. And I have a newsletter that goes out once a month called Cue that largely centers on mindset psychology, lifestyle, design, all that good stuff. So if you like the content of this chat, you will probably enjoy Cue. I'm always curating stuff there. I also have a podcast called Behind the Brilliance where I sit down and have long form conversations with innovators and entrepreneurs about their lives in a work. So yeah, I'm I like to talk about these things and share because we're living in a very interesting time and it comes with its challenges, but certainly, we have more opportunity than generations prior. So I feel like we should all take advantage of that.

Jamila Souffrant 62:40

Yes, and I love that I will definitely share all the contact information there. And one note about what I love about your social media is that you know, like you'll see like the people on social media they have like, hundred thousand followers and you know, you assume that they're making money and you're so low key on social media. Like your Instagram you hardly update it. When you up you know, like it just feels like it That's the kind of level of success I want, where it's just like, it's happening behind the scenes, like, you know, I'm good for it, the content is there, I don't have to, like post something for you to know that I'm popping. It's just like, you know that like the receipts when you find out more about me, they're there. So I love that about your style, that it's real work behind it. It's not just the nice picture.

Lisa Nicole Bell 63:18

Yeah, cuz I mean, look, maintaining those poppin social media profiles. That's a job.

Jamila Souffrant 63:26

Yeah, it takes a lot of work.

Lisa Nicole Bell 63:28

It's very time consuming to do that. And I mean, I just got to a point where I was like, do you want to be famous and broke? Or do you want to be wealthy and satisfied and the real ones know if you know, you know, and then other people may or may not know. I just realized that like, it's also a two edged sword to have, like, you know, 500,000 people following me and those things may happen. I'm not saying that they won't. So I'll take things as they come. But in order to like be pursuing that, it just felt like well, that's not the right use of time and understand if you continue to do the work. The people who need to know about you will know and also social media, in my opinion, is very much quantity over quality because the people who are paying attention are the people I want paying attention like there are people who can help me get things done and the rest is icing.

Jamila Souffrant 64:16

Love, love, love that. Okay, thank you so much Lisa for this conversation.

Lisa Nicole Bell 64:19

Thank you. It was such a pleasure.

Jamila Souffrant 64:25

Okay, journeyers. I really hope you are even more fueled up for your journey to financial freedom and independence. You know, with Lisa, I was I was really encouraged and inspired to talk to her after listening to her podcast and being a guest on her podcast because you're here like she's so low key on social media, but you can tell by her receipts and her portfolio and just the way that she talks that she's living like that life. And I wanted to just highlight that for you guys have her on the show, to show how you can truly create a life of design and you don't have to necessarily choose between money and creativity. You can do both. And so I hope you found some inspiration and some action items and things you can actually do from listening to Lisa. One of them is to definitely check out her podcast Behind the Brilliance.

Jamila Souffrant 65:13

Don't forget if you want the episode show notes to get any of the links mentioned in this episode, go to journeytolaunch.com or click the description wherever you're listening to this to get the link to the show notes. And if you want that free jumpstart guide to help you on your financial freedom journey, text launch to 33777 text launch to 33777 to get your free guide today or go to journeytolaunch.com/jumpstart. If you want to support me in the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen, whether that's Apple podcasts, that purple app on your phone phone, your Android device, YouTube Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen, just subscribe so you are not missing an episode. And if you're happening to listen to this and Apple podcasts, rate review and subscribe there, I appreciate and read every single review. Number two follow me on my social media accounts. I'm at journey to launch on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. And I love love love interacting with journey are there. Three, support and checkout the sponsors of this show if you hear something that interests you, sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here. So show them some love for supporting your girl. Four and last but not least, share this episode this podcast with a friend or family member or co worker so that we can spread the message of Journey to Launch. Alright, that's it. Until next week, keep on journeying journeyers.

Jamila Souffrant 00:00

You're listening to the Journey to Launch podcast How to Overcome Adversity and Build Wealth Through Relationships with Casanova Brooks.

Recording 00:12

Welcome to the Journey to Launch podcast with your host Jamila Souffrant. As a money expert who walks her talk, she helps brave journeyers like you get out of debt, save, invest and build real wealth. Join her on the journey to launch to financial freedom in five, four, three, two, one.

Jamila Souffrant 00:39

Hey, hey hey journeyers. Welcome to the Journey to Launch podcast. If you are an OG listener, then you know your journeyer already. That's what we call each other here. If you're new, you're journeyer no debate. Every week I bring you a brand-new episode, and I'm happy to bring you this week's episode. I'm going to be talking to Casanova Brooks on the podcast this week. Now Casanova Brooks is an award-winning author, high energy keynote speaker and entrepreneur. And as you'll hear through our conversation Casanova has been through a lot in his life. He is battled cancer, he's lost his mother, his job home all in a matter of weeks. And he has had very limited resources to really bring him to where he is today. So, he's going to talk through how it is that he became a successful entrepreneur. And really, it's through his mindset and building meaningful relationships. So, we're going to talk a lot about that in the podcast, and I'm excited for you to hear it.

Jamila Souffrant 01:33

Oh, and before we hop into the episode, I want to let you know about this podcast that I've been really digging lately. It's called The Brown Girls Guide to Politics. Now women of color are often too forgotten in most media coverages. From Wonder Media Network. The Brown Girls Guide to Politics is all about amplifying the voices of women of color is the one stop shop for women of color who wants to hear and talk about the world of politics. Host A'Shanti Gholar speaks with influential activists, politicians, journalists and more, who are playing a transformative role in the 2020 elections and beyond. From Stacey Abrams to Joy-Ann Reid, these women are changing the face of politics. Listen and subscribe to the brown girls guide to politics wherever you get your podcasts.

Jamila Souffrant 02:18

If you want the episode show notes for this episode, go to journeytolaunch.com or you can click the description wherever you're listening to this episode to get the full episode show notes. Now if you are a new listener to the podcast or OG journeyer I've created a Jumpstart Guide to help you on your journey to financial freedom. It includes the top episodes listen to, the stages to go through to reach financial freedom, resources to help you and so much more. Get it for FREE by texting, launch to 33777, text launch to 33777 or go to journeytolaunch.com/jumpstart to get your guide for free right now. Okay, let's hop into the episode.

Jamila Souffrant 03:06

Hey journeyers I am back with another what I hope to be inspiring and insightful episode. I have Casanova Brooks on the podcast. Hi, Casanova.

Casanova Brooks 03:15

Hey Jamila, how are you?

Jamila Souffrant 03:17

I am excited to talk to you and to learn more about your story. So, one of the things that we talked about before I pressed record was just like all the things you've been through in life and how you turn all that adversity into things that fueled you to success. You made a name for yourself in real estate investing. But I think what stands out the most for me is just your ability to mentally succeed. And I feel like for journeyers, people who listen to this podcast, the mental part of stuff, to me is actually the most important key to building wealth. Like it's like that stuff that you actually have do the internal work. So, I'm really excited to get to learn more about your story, and for you to share what you were able to do to be able to elevate yourself to this so just I'm excited. Welcome to the podcast.

Casanova Brooks 04:00

Thank you. I mean, I'm excited to share and hopefully I can be some type of value to your listeners. And yeah, I'm very excited to be on.

Jamila Souffrant 04:08

Okay, so first, let's tell everyone a little bit more about who you are. I know like real estate is your background a bit, but like, what have you been able to accomplish? Because people like okay, so who's Casanova? And why should we care? Like, what have you been able to do with your real estate investing portfolio, and then we can kind of like jump into the mindset stuff that allows you to do that.

Casanova Brooks 04:27

Yeah, so I would say really looking at my backstory, I think it would, it would lead up a lot into where we are today, and what I've been able to accomplish. So, I always like to think of myself as a relationship builder before anything else. So, for me, I grew up in inner city, Chicago, and I was raised by a single mom, I was also my grandma stepped in to help lead the way of being my dad. So, for me, I never had anybody that told me exactly what I was supposed to be in life, which was kind of a good thing, but at the same time, I never had anybody who could really lead me as far as from a man's perspective. I was the only child. So, I didn't have any older brothers or anything like that. So for me, it was a lot of trial and error when people look at it now of like me owning multiple businesses, me being in real estate having a real estate investing portfolio, me being the Rookie of the Year here in Nebraska in my first year, within nine months, I did 46 deals and $8 million in volume, in real estate as an agent, all those things I think they attribute to just how I've been able to build relationships. So that's how I think I've gotten to this point. But looking back, I know a lot of the times people love to know the backstory, and if it's okay with you, I'll share a little bit more into that backstory.

Jamila Souffrant 05:41

Yeah, let's go there. Because I think obviously the backstory, all those things that you've went through allowed you to be who you are today, so I definitely want to jump into that.

Casanova Brooks 05:49

Yeah. So again, I grew up inner city, Chicago, raised by my mom and grandma, and when I was growing up, I was raised in the heart of gangs, violence, just everything that should have told me that this was not supposed to be where I am today because I had the odds stacked against me. But I did have a strong mind. I had two strong minded women who always tried to protect me. So, they would always tell me, you know, that like, I could be anything that I wanted to be. But again, I didn't know where exactly I was supposed to go in life. So, I guess the first stage of adversity that I went through, was I had two best friends who I was spending all my time with. And we were young. I mean, this was around first second grade where we would always go to the beach, and Chicago. And basically, one Sunday, they came over to the house and we was this was routine, and they said, hey, we're about to go to the beach. And I for whatever reason, I can't tell you the reason why. But for whatever reason, I said, I don't want to go this morning. It was a fast forward that story about four hours later I remember their mom coming over to our house saying hey, do you know where the boys are thinking that I was supposed to be with them and maybe they would have knew where we all were? A mom says no, you know, Cass is in the room and then come to find out they both wind up drowning at that beach that day. So that was the first time that I was like, man, like this is crazy.

Jamila Souffrant 07:06

Wow.

Casanova Brooks 07:07

I just lost lost my two best friends and I was supposed to be right there with them.

Jamila Souffrant 07:10

How old were you?

Casanova Brooks 07:12

At this time? I was probably about eight years old.

Jamila Souffrant 07:15

Okay.

Casanova Brooks 07:16

Maybe nine years old. So that was my first thing that like, I was just like, oh my god. I mean, I was spending 100% of my time those were my guys. We were The Three Musketeers. So that was kind of that first thing that it was like my while and I had to figure out how to cope with that. But then again as drugs and gangs and everything else became more accessible to me because I became older and I'm starting to become more and more aware, my grandma started to become more and more aware. So, my grandma says, hey, you know what, we gotta get him out of here. So, by the end of my sixth-grade year, basically my cousin had just graduated college and then she went on to not come back to Chicago, but to go to a small town in Iowa called Sioux City. So, a lot of my other family started to migrate there just to give kids a better life. Word gets back around to my grandma. Next thing I know less than two weeks later, we're on a greyhound going to check out Sioux City, Iowa. And then less than two months later, all of our stuff is packed into a uhaul. And my grandma makes the decision that I'm going to Sioux City, Iowa, obviously, she's coming to, and my mom didn't really have a choice. But she came along because I'm an only child. And so yeah, so that's how everything starts the first change for me.

Casanova Brooks 08:23

So, what does that look like? Well, first off, I'm about 13 years old, 12,13 years old. And now I'm in a totally different environment, as you can imagine, coming from inner city, Chicago, where people only look like you and I to now being basically exposed to all of this diversity and having to figure out who are the people that are really on my side and things like that. But I always tell people that I was fortunate enough that my grandma made that decision for me, because I didn't grow up with a sense of ignorant mindset that said that just because you didn't look like me, did not mean that you had to be against me and you couldn't be with me. So, it allowed me to really get out there and just try to build relationships with other people and try to figure out how I could really fit in and even stand out in a world where it's it's so much going on. So, I'm now living life in Sioux City, Iowa. Things are a lot different for me. But then I hit my next stint of I would guess you would call adversity. And that is when I was 15 years old, I was diagnosed with stage four, Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma cancer. And so, I was two weeks away from death. And

Jamila Souffrant 09:25

Wow.

Casanova Brooks 09:26

Oh, yeah.

Jamila Souffrant 09:28

Yeah. Wow.

Casanova Brooks 09:29

So, so what that look like it's for me, you know, going through high school I'm a sophomore in high school at this time, very popular and playing basketball, football, track, and I'm also on the dance squad, and they're winning national titles. So, everything is going great. Now keep in mind, I never was sick as a child. I never had chicken pox, measles, anything. So, this was all foreign. And what happens is I wind up leaving football season, about a month early and I was ready for basketball to start up, and I just decided that I didn't want to play football anymore. So then as we're walking through the hallways, I'm telling like my friends, I'm like, Yo, I'm having a hard time breathing. And they're like, Ah, it's probably just because we just started conditioning and basketball. And you're probably just out of shape a little bit. So, I'm like are you know what you're right. But then when I would get out of school and out of practice, I would come home and the first thing I would do is like, take a nap. And so, unlike me, and my mom saw, and she's like, hey, what's up? And I'm like, I don't know, I'm just having a little bit of hard time breathing. I'm super tired. And she's like, okay, well, if this persists, you know, over the next couple of days, like we're gonna go to the doctor and see what's up. And so next couple of days, of course, it did persist, I kept taking lots of naps and feeling tired. And so, then we go to the emergency room one night, and I remember again, I'm always I've always kind of been ignorant to the fact because growing up, I was never exposed to a lot of things. So, like, for me, I didn't know what it looked like to really even go to hospitals and things. So, all I could really think of was when the nurses said, or the doctor said, like, hey, we think it might be a little bit more serious. We're going to do a lot more testing since obviously, it's dealing with breathing and my chest and they're like, we were going to keep him overnight. So, I'm thinking I'm gonna get like sponge bath from nurses, I'm gonna get ice cream, like, I'm only 15 at this time like, this is gonna be great. And then all of a sudden, I remember they come back in and like 1am in the morning, they're like, hey, you know what, actually, we got public transportation that's going to take you guys to the University of Iowa, which is on the other side of the state about four and a half hours away. And we think it may be a little bit more serious. And I remember my mom and grandma being like, wait, what do you mean, like, tell us what's going on. And then the doctor says, like, we think he might have cancer. And then I remember my grandma just being like, whoa. And I and at this time, I'm like, well, what the hell, like I don't really even know cancer, like, what does that mean? All this other stuff? And they're like, well, we don't want to say too much in the beginning. Let's just wait until you know you guys get there. They have specialists there and we'll go from there. So, we go to the University of Iowa about, you know, six, seven hours later, we arrived there, and they do all these testing and thing and then they say like, yeah, you know, it's stage four. It's all throughout your body. And if you would have waited two more weeks, it could have just died. So obviously, I have to stay in that hospital for about 45 days. And I go through all these testings and everything else. So that was where obviously life took a huge turn for me at this time because being 15 those are like your golden years of trying to figure out who you are, are you popular? Are you not? Are you going to go to college? Are you going to become an entrepreneur, all these other things, and I didn't know how to cope with a lot of those things. But I would say that's where my mindset really started to take that shift. And yeah, I guess I would turn it over to you to see, you know, where you'd want to go from here.

Jamila Souffrant 12:31

Yeah, well, so it was cancer, something that like, was in your family before or...

Casanova Brooks 12:38

No, so you know, growing up in Chicago and and I don't want to limit it just to Chicago, but obviously, when you're growing up around an inner city, there's a lot of things that you're doing that is not really conducive to you living a healthy lifestyle. So, for me what was you know, profound in my family was alcoholism, right, everybody was smoking, drinking. You know, there was some drugs, but cancer was wasn't necessarily a big word in my family, at least not that I was exposed to. So no, it's definitely not in childhood cancer. So no, that was all super, super foreign to. So that's why my grandma was like, whoa. And again, I was never ever sick. So, it was like, how do you go from never being in hospital? So, all of a sudden, yeah, two weeks from now, you wouldn't have came in here, we wouldn't have caught this, like you would have been in trouble.

Jamila Souffrant 13:24

Right, right. And, you know, I've experienced a lot of loss from cancer, like personally from people in my life. So it's just one of those things where I remember growing up where cancer was things that happened to other people, right, you know, you heard about it, and like, maybe it's a coworker or someone else and now it's more even rampant like in my just life with people that I know and family members of friends that it shows up more. So, I'm just amazed, you know, at such a young age, you had to personally go through that. So, what did so you recovered? You're here still so thank God but you're here. So, what was that like? So, you're only 15 I know that you've still even like that's not the end of it. Some people love You already talked about a couple of events that would have been enough to really set anyone back, right? And these were all before you were even in your 20s. So, and I feel like it's still not done like you still had a few more moments in your life that were hard that you had to get through. Can you talk through a bit about the recovery from the cancer and then what else do you had to face as you were growing up?

Casanova Brooks 14:21

Yeah. So after I go through this two years of chemo, I'll be honest with you, it was a lot for me, and it would be a lot for anyone, regardless, but when you're 15-17, here's what I'll tell you is for me, what I didn't like about it was, in a sense, I felt almost invincible. And as a high school kid, a lot of people willing, when all things are going away, right for you. It felt like my grades were going fine. I had a lot of friendships, everything was good. Well, then after I got back from the University of Iowa, what started to change was everyone looked at me like a victim. Right? So, this was a big thing for me because now people were asking me Oh, how do you feel like, are you sick or things like that? Well, I had to try to be strong, but then at the same time with going through, you know, chemotherapy every couple weeks and really feeling tired and things not sitting well in my stomach and all these other things, but then at the same time when you're 15 to 17 years old, as we know, just being like a kid anyway, it can be very, very gruesome on what people say to you.

Casanova Brooks 15:21

So, I remember like my buddies and people like that, they would say things that they didn't, I don't think intentionally thought that was gonna hurt me. But when people would say like, oh, man, you better you know, shut up for a knock that poured out of your chest, right? Just things like that. That was like, but I had to be strong about it. And now it was kind of like they never let them see you sweat. So then, like people would laugh, but I would try to, you know, make it seem like it didn't really affect me. So, all of these things. I'm really trying to figure out how do I cope with these things mentally? How do I not show that I am a victim? How do I stay strong, but then at the same time, after school is over and everybody's going over a friend's house but me knowing that I got to either go to cancer treatment or at the same time, I have to just go home and take a rest because I've been at school all day, and I'm super tired. So, I think that is what kind of started to build my armor and build my character.

Casanova Brooks 16:09

But I'll tell you, when I first got done with it, I remember going to my mom and grandma and being and when they said like, hey, you're cured. I remember saying, like, Hey, I'm just gonna be honest, if this thing comes back, like, I'm going out comfort care style, like, I'm not going through all this again. Now, of course, now I have, you know, an eight-year-old son, I have a two-year-old daughter, I have my wife and a lot of other people who depend on me. So of course, I would go through it again. But at that time, it was so so mentally draining on me and physically draining that I thought that I would never go through it again. But so yes, I come out of that. And now I'm really trying to figure out where my life is gonna go. Now I'll tell you early on people asked me was I an entrepreneur early on was I doing all these different things and I would say that I was and the reason being is because, for one, I never saw anybody who was doing anything that I wanted to do and where I got a lot of my inspiration from was the TV because my parents my family never owned house, car, business nothing. So, for me, I'd tell people all the time, like my favorite show growing up was VH1's "The Fabulous Life Of" Do you remember that show?

Jamila Souffrant 17:14

Oh, yes, I remember that.

Casanova Brooks 17:15

Right. It was like their version of MTV Cribs. So, I remember seeing like Richard Branson, and he had the island, right? He had yachts and they would show the bling or the numbers of what this cost so that's what really gave me my inspiration. And, and not really understanding that I had a lack of resources at that time, I was just living in it. And my mom always tried to, you know, instill some type of positivity in me, even though she didn't have it to give to me as far as financial literacy or resources. So, I always felt like one day I'm going to get that type of stuff. So, as I started as really like my first ever job came around the time that I was like eight or nine years old. And what I would do, there was a gas station, probably about four or five blocks away. So, what I would do is I would go over to that gas station mean a buddy or two and we would just stand outside in front of cars. And when you would go inside, you'd come back out if you're at this time. And this is around to give people my age time, this is around 95. Right? So, I would go in there and or you would go in there and come back out. And I would say, hey, if you wouldn't mind, Ma'am, can I pump your gas? And then you would say yes or no. If you said yes, I would pump your gas in hopes that when it was done, you would give me 50 cents $1, whatever. Well, there were some days where I would walk out of there were like, 20 $25, after four or five hours, being eight, nine years old, I'm feeling like I'm rich, right. And at this time, you could still get like penny candy or quarter candy. So, I had my own money. So that was the first time that I could really start to see that I could create my own success. And that just kind of kind of and my parents were proud because I was doing something on my own. I didn't keep coming to them saying hey, I need $1 $2 here or there. And so that was like the way that I kind of found my way through entrepreneurship. So throughout high school and throughout even when I was done with high school and going into college, I tried my hand at so many different things. And it was really just because I love the fact of being exposed to all these things because I knew that I didn't know what was all out there. And I struggled with always making a choice on what I wanted to do, because it was like, again, like thinking about it. When we have kids, and I believe you have kids, right?

Jamila Souffrant 19:18

Oh, yes, three.

Casanova Brooks 19:19

Yep. And so, we have these kids, we think about we want our kids to try some of everything, right? Whether it's sports, or their show choir, whether it's band, whether it's a doesn't matter what it is, we want to try everything to figure out the ropes. And so, for me, I wanted to try everything. And so, I think once I got into college because I wind up going to the University of Iowa. I did three years there. Well as I got into my junior year, about two weeks, in I remember calling my parents after they dropped me off and saying, Hey, I don't think this is what I want to do anymore. But first off, my mom's hot because she's like, you could have told me this two weeks ago.

Jamila Souffrant 19:56

Right.

Casanova Brooks 19:56

Before we dropped you off four and a half hours away, but on top of that, you're not gonna gotta tell your grandma. And remember, I'm first generation everything. So, they're loving the fact that now past two years of going into my junior year, I'm in a four-year big-time university. And they're going to be proud on that. But I really became of the under of the belief and the understanding that just because I had a degree did not mean I was going to be successful in life.

Jamila Souffrant 20:19

What was your major?

Casanova Brooks 20:21

Well I switched my major four times.

Jamila Souffrant 20:23

Oh, my God.

Casanova Brooks 20:24

I started out with computer science. Then I went to business. Then I went to pharmacy because I was going to be a pharmaceutical sales event. And then my junior year, I switched over to communications. I just wanted the piece of paper and I want it to be done with it. Now keep in mind even going throughout all that stuff in high school, I graduated at 17. Right. So, for me, it was like I and then I saw I went even to college like I was a late bloomer, so I turned 18 about three weeks into my freshman year of college. So again, I was done with school. I didn't really want to go anymore, but I knew that it was my parents wanting me to get this piece of paper. So, it's something they can be proud of. And so that was like I changed my major every single time because I didn't like any of those things. I was just trying to figure out, where was my path. And so, I wind up leaving college, my parents didn't support it. They say, okay, you're going to come home, you're going to get a job. And then maybe you can go to community college and figure out what it is that you want to do. So, along this path as well, I'm just trying some of everything. I mean, I'll tell you, I probably had 18 different jobs in my lifetime. I've tried everything. If you think about it, I've sold it. Besides, like major hard drugs.

Casanova Brooks 20:24

Yeah.

Jamila Souffrant 21:32

I do have a question. So, for you because I find it very interesting that you tried so many things. It's good though, because so many of us like we'll start something and be like, this is not for me, but you know, to pivot and do something else. You don't do it right. Like you just think about it and you don't go after it. So, what was the thing that was throughout all those jobs that you tried? Like what was the thing that you were just like this is not it. Like was it a feeling were you dissatisfied with maybe if you had a boss because I've always had that feeling too. Like I hate having to answer to anyone. What was that? How did you know that it wasn't right for you?

Casanova Brooks 22:05

Yeah, I think that it was really about I wanted to control my own time. Right? Because maybe that came from having the cancer where I knew that tomorrow was never promised. And so, I think the other thing was, I was early on in like, I would probably say about 14, it was the first time that I really started to get into the Forbes list. Right? So, I remember when I was young, I would look at all these people on the top 400 of the Forbes or the richest men in the world, women in the world as well, richest people. And I would look at what they were doing. And I was like, oh my god, and so me sitting in a cubicle, or me having somebody else tell me what I could or could not do or go to the bathroom, whatever it was. I was like, listen, this is not my way that I'm going to make it on the top Forbes 100 list. And so that was always where I aspire to be in the end. And then on top of that always felt like in my heart of hearts, I felt like I was never being valued at what I was worth. Right. And so, and so those are a lot of the things that went in there. And I think that I looked at it and I said, listen, if I want to be able to have a true impact on this world, I have to be able to leverage my time. So, if you look at that, let's look at anybody who's a thought leader like Oprah or somebody like that. Nobody tells Oprah where she really has to be. Right and, and things like that. So, I just knew at the end of the day working a job, it was never going to get me to where I needed to be. And so, I tried a lot of different things in hopes that I would find that right path that would lead me to where I want to be. And I think a prime example of this for somebody who when I heard their story, I loved it was Sara Blakely, the Spanx lady.

Jamila Souffrant 23:41

Yeah, uh huh.

Casanova Brooks 23:43

And so, she talks about this, she said early on, she knew she wanted to find like a billion-dollar product. And so, everything that she saw, she was like, okay, is this gonna lead me to my billion-dollar path? Is this gonna lead me and for anybody who's wondering like, what was that? How can they hear it? It was on Reid Hoffman. It's called Masters of Scale. Have you ever heard of that podcast?

Jamila Souffrant 24:03

Yes. Mm hmm.

Casanova Brooks 24:04

So, he interviewed her on there. And I listened to that interview, and you can hear her talk about those things. And it was the first time that I felt like I resonated with someone else who had that vision early on.

Jamila Souffrant 24:15

They just knew.

Jamila Souffrant 24:16

Yeah, they knew. Yeah,

Casanova Brooks 24:18

Exactly. But shared it because so many people, they won't share it like that they will share that they were crazy in the beginning. Right, though, don't make it seem like they had a planned and methodical, you know, way of doing it and yet but she said early on, she said I was crazy. She's I tried to do everything and everything was like will this allow and I think again, if you seek it out in the end, I tell people all the time, people are coaching that I don't coach, like you don't have to love the journey. You don't have to love the process. You just have to be married to the destination.

Jamila Souffrant 24:49

Mm hmm. So, let's stop there. Because I actually think that's very interesting because the thing about like people like Sara, who made it and then are like telling like the actual thought process When they first started, like people will listen to Sara more because they're like, well, she was successful. So, like, I can listen to her. And like, she actually proved herself, right. And I feel like there's so many people and this could be some people listening, you and I probably similar in certain ways in which you have a big vision, you're not necessarily the big vision has not come fully into scope yet, but it's there. And so sometimes, like when you're in the middle of the journey, like you said, it's harder to predict like the outcome, right? Because you don't know exactly what the billion-dollar thing will be, or how many what the big impact you're going to have is going to be and so you do have to start out where you are. And so sometimes I feel like people get a little discouraged because there's like a gap between the vision and where they currently are. So, I find it interesting because I feel like with the journey while you said you didn't have to like enjoy it.

25:46

You don't have to love the journey or even love the process, but you have to be married to the destination.

Jamila Souffrant 25:51

You have to be committed to the destination and I agree, and I would just add in like personally for me, I say that the journey though is the longest part. It's like, who you become on the journey allows you to get to the destination. So, it's like you may not enjoy some of the things you may have to do and go through the obstacles and all that stuff to get there. But it's like part of part of my thing is like, the journey is what really makes you who you are.

Casanova Brooks 26:16

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that when you think about when I say you have to be married to the destination, for me, I believe that I'm a dreamer before anything else, right? So, you, we all are dreamers, when you start out. That's the reason why I have the podcast name what it is, which is Dream Nation, right is because everything starts with a dream. You didn't know when you first decided that you were going to start Journey to Launch you didn't know necessarily that you were going to get to a million downloads, you didn't know that you're going to get to 50 million downloads, right? But you had a dream and you knew that you wanted to impact the lives of others. And you wanted it to be able to be some type of a bridge for them to be able to find where their purpose is and find their clarity and be some type of a resource. So, it started with the dream and now if you looked at this, you think of all of the things that you probably didn't know it was gonna go like this over the last two and a half years, right? Well, there's so many things that you never could have predicted when you first started the now, you'll look back and you'll laugh on it. And you'll say, wow, I didn't know, I never would have thought that I would have been able to get these people to have interest in my podcast. So, where my audience would turn. So that's what I think for a lot of people. All you have to do is think of the big picture, right? And you think about at the end of the day, in a perfect world, who am I going to impact? And what is the legacy that I'll leave? And then along this way, as long as you know that that's my end goal. That's my mission, my vision. Here's my values. I think the path is definitely going to change.

Jamila Souffrant 27:41

Yeah, yeah. So, it sounds like you were searching for that thing. You said you went back home. What was your next move? What did you find that thing? It seems like real estate became that for you?

Casanova Brooks 27:53

Yeah. So real estate was funny because I knew nothing about real estate. Before getting in. I'll tell you how my journey became was my first every job well first, I played online poker at my first real thing that I thought that I was gonna do was video gaming, I thought I was getting so it's funny now because my son, he's just he's very, very good at basketball, he's big into sports, all these other things, but about two and a half weeks ago, and I'm you might be able to relate to this. I asked my son, I was like, Well, what are you going to do when you get older? And there was a lot more context to this and before would always be basketball. But yeah, he just told me a couple weeks ago with pure conviction that he's going to be a YouTuber when he grows up, right and until I'm like, Oh, my God, but and now he's big into the fortnight and everything else, which is us as parents, we're learning how to cope with these things. Because obviously, we've always been fed the traditional route, but we could see that that's not there's no longer necessary to really have a purpose in life and to be successful. We see people winning all day, just like with these podcasts.

Casanova Brooks 28:52

So anyway, for me, I thought originally, I was going to be a professional gamer tried that way out there. My son was born and at the time, there was not a lot of money behind all these things. So, I was like, Okay, well, I gotta get a real job. So, I tried my hand at a lot of different real jobs, then I play poker for a living for two years, that wind up getting shut down in the US. So, I had to get a passport and go live in Canada for three weeks, so I could continue to play. And then but my son was on his way of being born. So, I knew I wasn't going to be able to stay outside of the country while I had a son that was about to be born and all these other things. So, I wanted to come back and I had to get a real job. And so that real job for me at the time was serving tables. And I was around 23 at this time, right? So, I'm I'm 23. At this time, I'm done playing poker, I get a job. I'm serving tables and trying to figure out what my next move is going to be.

Jamila Souffrant 29:37

You're being responsible now you're like, all right, I gotta come back. I have a son on the way.

Casanova Brooks 29:42

All of those things. So, I get this job serving tables, still knowing that I still want my flexibility. So, the reason why I'm serving tables is you get cash tips, you can pick up you can drop shifts whenever you want. All these other things. So, I decide, and it's set up a higher tier restaurant, right? Not full on like the highest but it's probably the average plate there is around $18-$19. So, Mike, okay, so I'm going to do this well, here's what starts to shift in my mind. I begin to get a lot of regulars. So, I will see you, I say, hey Jamila, and you would say, hey, and I would say you're waiting on the table, like just making small talk. And you're like, Yeah, actually, we see that those people are about to get up in your section. We're waiting for them to get up. And then we're gonna sit down there if it's cool. And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. I'll clean off the table. And then what started to dawn on me Is that you, your family, your friends, like you could have went anywhere in the city on this given Thursday, Friday, Saturday night, but not only did you choose to come to this restaurant, but you choose to wait on a table in my section in a world of instant gratification, because you knew that I would serve you because you knew that you wouldn't be hassled it wasn't about the tip. It was really about the relationship. So that started to like dawn on me. And I love the conversations and I was like, Man, this is like maybe I'm onto something here.

Casanova Brooks 30:53

So, I'm just serving tables and keep doing it. I'm having a lot of fun. Well during this time, I wind up having the GM have a pretty large car dealership that came in and he became one of my regulars. So, we go in to buy a car, and I'm buying it from a buddy of mine. And he says, he sees me out there. And he says, hey, is that Casanova? And he says, Yes, it is. And he says, ask him if he has any interest in selling cars. And so, my buddy comes back out, and he's like, hey, Justin, who's the GM wants to know if you want to sell cars, and I look at my wife, and I keep in mind, I didn't know anything about cars. My parents never owned a car didn't know how to drive a car, really. I was getting my first car, all these other things. So, I'm thinking like nah because all I had in my mind was used sleazy car salesman, right. And I didn't want my name to be associated with that. So, I'm like, Nah, I'm good. So, as all sales managers are, he was very persistent. So, he gets me to come in a few days later. And he's like, yo, let me ask like, what are your goals in life? Now at this time is still serving. So, I'm like, Look, I don't really know. All I know is that I want to make $100,000 in one year, right? I just want to be the six-figure man, I didn't know how I was going to do it, but that would be my first step in my journey to launch. Right? And so that was a big thing for me. So, he says, okay, you see these three guys outside of my glass window. So, I look back and he's got this big glass office and I say, Yeah, he said, Well, all three of those guys made over 90 grand last year, two of which made over 110. And he's like, look, I'm not saying that you're gonna and I, here's what I'll tell you. I knew one of the guys and he was a year younger than me. He went to a different high school, but we at least knew kind of knew each other.

Casanova Brooks 32:27

So now, he's like, pushing my hot buttons. But I didn't know like that. That was still what I wanted to do. But he's like, listen, I'm not saying you're going to come in and make over 110,000. He's like, but I know potential when I see it, and you have that potential. So, he pushed my hot buttons. He told me a couple other things. And long story short, he wants to being able to get me to come sell cars. Well I knew nothing about it. Within six months. I got car salesman of the month on my fifth and the six months, so two months in a row out of 27 other sales reps, and I'm crushing it. So how am I doing that? I know nothing really still about cars, but I know how to build relationships with people. So, around the same time, I'm selling cars, but my son's now born, right? And he's going through this potty-training stage. And now I find that I'm missing so much time there because I'm at the dealership. 8am to 8pm sorry, okay, I'd like I don't really like this will. During the same time, my old my seventh-grade football coach hits me up, and he says, hey, you know, how's things going? Are you interested in making some money on the side? You know and building a business also stuff, so I didn't know what I didn't know what he was getting me to come to one of these meetings. It's a network marketing thing. And specifically, it's Amway. If you've ever heard of that, it.

Jamila Souffrant 33:39

Yeah, yeah.

Casanova Brooks 33:41

Yep. So, I do the Amway thing. And I quickly find within about six to eight months that Amway in particular is not for me, as far as those products and services at that time in my life. But what I did learn was the personal development side, I absolutely love being exposed to it. So, it was the first time I got exposed to like Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki, Go for No! Richest Man in Babylon, all these other things. So, I'm like, wow, like nobody's ever told me about this. And so, I want to doing that on the side for again, like six to eight months. And then how I wind up making it to real estate was I got a job opportunity because I'm working so many hours at the car dealership. So basically, I just come off my first 10k month, which and I was is huge because keep in mind, like our average home price in Sioux City, Iowa was like $140,000 right? So, it's like small town, all these things. So, I'm making good money and I'm only like 25 at the time. So, I wind up quitting the car dealership, which looked, it looked like I was crazy. So then moved to Omaha, Nebraska, which was an hour and a half south of Sioux City, which is where I am now, I want to move in here. So, I could basically be a marketing consultant for a big company that at the time was 70% in the telephone directory. Now they've tried to transition out of that, but I remember distinctly my sales manager being like, Nova are you effing stupid? Like you're gonna leave this you just came off the biggest month you've ever had what you're doing for your family so you can go sell Yellow Pages?

Jamila Souffrant 35:11

What made you want to do that? So, for a lot of people I'm listening like in terms of like finding your way finding your path. It sounds like you build it upon like the skills so the one of the things you first said in the interview was relationship building is key. And so that is something that I think any like whether you are entrepreneur or not, relationships are everything. I always say your network is your net worth because if you're able to communicate and find camaraderie with people and really like get to like what people want and need, you're able to then conduct business or be able to exchange services with them. So, for you, it seems like that and plus you had a lot of like ambition and drive. Plus, probably now you're learning about sales because you're doing well with, I mean, sales like even with being a server you're kind of it's like a sales job almost right. You're selling the dishes and its part of it. And so, it sounds like you just you kept building upon your resume. So now you're, you move jobs. So, what was the reason? Was it more like you thought it was a better opportunity to also employ your skills and make more money? Or why did you give up this sales job at the car dealership for this new thing?

Casanova Brooks 36:16

Yeah, so the other thing was sales as well. It was a marketing consultant; it was still going to be based off the sales. But keep in mind that in the beginning, my whole goal through this was to be able to have more time I wanted to control my own time. So how they propose this to me was saying, hey, one, the network marketing congregation the big one that I was a part of was down here in Omaha. So, they say, hey, look, man, you got to get out of that job. How about you come do this job, you're only going to work eight to five, but then there's tons of incentives for you to only work instead of 40 hours, like 25 to 30 hours and then when you're not working, you can quote unquote, build the business, right? And then eventually look for your time freedom. So, I'm like, Okay, cool. So, it was still a sales job. So, I took this job opportunity, but I was always again I use my path, because I knew that I wanted bigger. And I knew that I couldn't get that out of Sioux City and selling cars. So here, let's try this other thing. Plus is in a bigger city. And my wife and I, at that time, we'd always do it over the last like year, year and a half of that time, we were looking at moving down to Kansas City, Missouri. So, the thought was, it's bigger, it's more urban, you got the Chiefs, the Royals, all these things, so we'd be able to have more to do with my son. So, we didn't have any family down there. We had no support. So, when I got this job opportunity in Omaha, it was like, listen, before we move four hours away and leave our families, her mom or dad, her dad, everything. Let's make sure that Omaha works, which is right in the middle. And then if it's still not big enough, after we've made sure we can make this work, then we'll move down to Kansas City. So again, I was just taking every step, but I knew that I always wanted bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger.

Jamila Souffrant 37:50

Okay, yeah.

Casanova Brooks 37:51

It was just one stepping stone in the process. And I knew that I had to do something so.

Jamila Souffrant 37:56

So then how did you get into real estate? At what point were you like how did you start to build your portfolio and know that real estate was for you?

Casanova Brooks 38:02

Right? So, what I decided to do was I took on this job started crushing it at this. Well, then I quickly learned that in the corporate world, everybody could tell you no, but nobody could tell you yes. Right. So, for me, I was leading all these emergent leader programs and things like that, because this was probably about 4000, inside sales reps. And within nine months I finished is number eight in the entire company. Right? So, they were loving everything that I was doing. And I'm like, look, I want to try my hand at management, though. And they're like all Casanova. You know, you're doing so great, but there's no opportunity right now. I'm like, Okay, I see where this is going.

Casanova Brooks 38:38

So, around the same time, I started to look, and do you know who Jay Morrison is?

Jamila Souffrant 38:43

Yes. Hmm.

Casanova Brooks 38:44

So, I wind up catching a Jay Morrison video on YouTube. And he had said, you got to figure out a way to be the Lord of your land. So, for me, I'm like, what the hell does that mean? Like I love that, but I don't. We've never owned real estate. I don't know how to do that. But I look deeper into his story. And I seen that at that time, he was the acclaimed celebrity realtor. So, I said, Okay, and I was like, Okay, I don't know how to own real estate. But what I do know how to do is just from my journey, my path, I know how to build relationships with other people. So how about I get my real estate license, I help other people buy, sell, and invest, and then I'll take my commissions and buy my own real estate. So that was the path that I decided to go on. So, I wind up getting my real estate license because of that path. And then never knowing that I would become this celebrity realtor. My whole goal was just to really figure out how to be the Lord of my land. And that's kind of where that path came in.

Jamila Souffrant 39:41

Yeah, I love that phrase, "Be the Lord of your land." So, with the real estate, you became successful with that, so throughout all of what you're talking about, you know, the adversities you've been through, staying consistent. You know, some people would have given up and just said, you know what, maybe I'm never going to find like the thing maybe I'm not meant to do this big thing. I always say you don't have to have have a crazy big dream, whatever it is that makes you happy, right? That makes you feel like you're fulfilled in life. What are the qualities that allowed you to withstand and to succeed the way that you have so that people can start to think, Okay, what can I do more of in my life? or How can I change how I'm perceiving this thing that's happening to me right now?

Casanova Brooks 40:20

The number one thing that I always thought of is that joy wouldn't feel so good if it wasn't for pain, because we all go through some type of pain. So, if somebody right now is trying to figure out how do they navigate through life, well, first off, always say what is your gift, right? And so, your gift is what comes easy for you and harder for others. So, you you think about what's my gift in this world? And then I think the second part of that is, if you don't really know that, ask yourself when you go throughout your day, what does somebody already tell you? Wow. And thank you for we all have our own unfair advantage. Right?

Casanova Brooks 40:56

And so, what does that look like? You could be somebody who's an engineer Where you look at things on the analytical standpoint, you can be somebody who you're just very detail oriented. And maybe you're a proofreader, or maybe you're some type of a freelancer, you can be somebody who loves your artistic ability. And maybe you want to be a graphic designer, you could be a video editor. There's all these things of what you can do in life. So, for me, if you look at what my path has been, it was always what was my gift. My gift was building relationships with people. My gift was having high energy high charisma. And I understood that because people were already saying, wow, Casanova like your energy is contagious, it's infectious. And so, I just built off of that.

Casanova Brooks 41:37

So, it didn't really matter what I was selling, right? It just mattered that I built the relationships and that always brought positivity to someone else's life. When I went through my last stint of adversity, which was four months after I got my real estate license, and this was probably the biggest one for me. After I got my license, basically, my mom and grandma calls me up and they say, hey, you know what we want to move down to Omaha to be closer to you, Julie and CJ, and they had nothing left in Sioux City. So, we say okay, well within moving my mom down here within a couple weeks, within 24 hours, my mom ends up going to the hospital here in Omaha. To shorten up this story within a week and a half stretch. I lose my mom at that hospital as a domino effect just because of where I am in life right now of transitioning from inside sales to outside sales. So, I can build my real estate business and have more control over my time. I wind up losing that job because I was so brand new, and I still had to protect my grandma and everything else. And then as a result of losing my job, I wind up losing my home, which is our first home that we had under contract. So, when they went to re verify employment to make sure I still had a job. I no longer had that job because of a couple of different other things. So, all within a couple of weeks timeframe, I lose my job, I lose my mom and I lose my home. All within a matter of weeks. Well to fast forward with the nine months. I had did 46 deals in that eight million dollars in volume. But how did I do that I really just honed down on what were my strengths. my strengths was again, I was able to build relationships. People didn't know me, but people didn't know what I even knew about real estate at the time. But I focused on making sure that I could pour into other people that I could have high integrity and high energy. And so, people didn't really care. They didn't know that I was sleeping in a basement next to a furnace and a water heater for my first nine months of selling real estate. But yeah, I was helping them by $300 to $400,000 houses, obviously, which is higher in Omaha as well. So, I just focused on what my gift was. And so, for you think of what is your gift, what comes easy for you and harder for other people and then double down on that strength is what I would say.

Jamila Souffrant 43:44

Yeah, and it sounds like too, because you know, you can never predict what life throws at you or what you endure. And so, you know, there are a lot of people who wouldn't have been able to show up and still do you know that kind of work or sell the real estate or continue on mentally, right? And so, I always say that that's why the mental side of things like how you perceive things, how you withstand things is really what allows you to succeed. Because everyone that I've ever spoke to whether it's on the podcast or in personal life that has succeeded at any level, it's not that they haven't gone through anything and everyone's level of pain. And you know, you can't even Yeah, sure, we can like stack pain against each other and kind of compare it, but everyone has their own thresholds, right. But even the littlest things that may not seem like as big as losing, like a parent can feel like a big setback for someone. But it's really just like not giving up, right? Like, it's almost just like expecting that these things can happen in life. But realizing that the only way that you fail, is if you don't like you said, use your gifts that you were given.

Casanova Brooks 44:43

Yeah, absolutely. And so, the only thing you can never control the result, but the only thing that you can control is your effort. There where you can't control if you're going to win or lose that game. You can't control if your business is going to succeed or if it's going to fail after five years. It doesn't matter only thing can control is your effort. And you always have to find some type of positivity out of every single situation, you can always find something positive. I'll tell you, obviously, over the last 30 days, our world has been super impacted by the loss of Kobe, his daughter and everybody else who was on that flight. And so, for so many people, myself included, your faith is tested by something like that, because you're like, man, this young girl, she was making such a positive impact for other girls and what Kobe has done. I'm a huge basketball fan. So, it's been amazing. And so, you struggle to find what what is the positivity out of that. But then for me just trying to search for what I could find I thought about, you know, I don't know if there's ever been another icon over at least this generation or the last 20 years, that's been able to bring together the world as it has with losing them too. So again, there's no positive out of taking their lives but at the same time, you have to find some type of blemish of hope. And so, if you think about Michael Jackson or Prince or anybody else like that, there's still that disconnect. Because some people might not have really listened to their music or whatever else or the thoughts that they had. But with Kobe and with his daughter and with the other people on there, it was a profound impact in the way that it unified all of us to really just think that there's so many bigger things that we can be grateful for in life, because it can be gone too soon.

Casanova Brooks 46:23

So, I think in every situation, no matter where you are in life, you can find some type of hope. Right? It allowed me to just keep going when I lost my mom to know that everything that I do every minute of every hour, every person who I tried to impact their lives, and I can use her as the beacon of hope that was for me. I'm sure that she's looking down on me and she's proud because that was all she ever wanted in life. I was very, very close to my mom and being a single mother and her doing everything she did for me. Now when I look at this, I say why did I have to lose my mom, but maybe that opened up my eyes to understand that again. It can all be gone tomorrow. You have to figure out what is the positive angle that you can take from this that allows you to smile. Because if you can smile, somebody else will see that smile. And it becomes again contagious and infectious. And if you hit him with a thank you or whatever else, maybe you made somebody else's life, or at least day that much better that day.

Jamila Souffrant 47:19

Yeah, that's so powerful. I'm so glad that you walked us through your story and you overcoming adversity. I know, there's some people listening that may have lost a loved one recently, or just in general in their life, or are just going through something. And so, to hear that at the end of the day, like you can still realize your dreams, even if you know like you try different things and it's not working. You really just got to keep pushing forward that you can come out on the other side. So please Casanova, we'll let everyone know like where they can find out more about your story. Follow your journey and you have a podcast. So, share all the things where people can catch up with you.

Casanova Brooks 47:51

Yeah, first I'll say again, I appreciate you having me on here. This has been a wonderful conversation, and I look forward to having you on mine as well. For anybody who wants to stay connected with me, I am very, very accessible. I'm on all the social media sites. @Casanova_Brooks. I'm the most active on Instagram. And then I do have my podcast, which is Dream Nation. It's one word. It's out on iTunes, Google podcasts, Pocket Casts. That's all over but it's Dream Nation, and I guess the last thing that I would say on this is, understand that your journey, a lot of the times, it's not for you, right, we all have our own stories that we tell ourselves in our head, but you have to be able to get outside of your own head and you have to understand that you're going to impact somebody else with your journey. So, every day when you push forward, maybe it's your son, maybe it's your brother, your sister, maybe it's somebody who is in your mastermind group, but everybody's looking for inspiration and hope to just keep moving forward every single day. That's the reason why masterminds and coaching programs are so big. And so, understand that if you're only thinking about yourself, and why you can't do that next step forward, that you're being selfish because your journey is not for you, it's for someone else. And that's how we make this world a better place.

Jamila Souffrant 49:08

Yeah, thank you so much. And so, I will definitely link all of this in the show notes. So, thanks again. Casanova. This was great.

Casanova Brooks 49:14

Yes, thank you. I appreciate it.

Jamila Souffrant 49:19

Okay, journeyers I really hope you enjoyed that podcast. That conversation with Casanova Brooks. Adversity is all relative. I don't think we should compare our problems and issues to someone else. Because what is a lot for someone may be not a big deal for someone else. And we all have our journeys that we're on, and are things that block us that stop us that temporarily stop us right not permanently, but that cause us to pause and decide if we're going to continue and hope because you're listening to this podcast, you'll always decide to continue no matter how bleak things seem because there is a light at the end of the tunnel. So, I'm glad that I was able to talk to Casanova through how he was able to get through all those tough times in his life and put him to where he is today. So, I hope you can take away something from this. Implement something, shift mindsets, be more encouraged for your journey in life and in financial freedom and independence.

Jamila Souffrant 50:18

Don't forget if you want the episode show notes to get any of the links mentioned in this episode, go to journeytolaunch.com or click the description wherever you're listening to this to get the link to the show notes. And if you want that free Jumpstart Guide to help you on your financial freedom journey, text launch to 33777 text launch to 33777 to get your free guide today or go to journeytolaunch.com/jumpstart. If you want to support me and the podcast and love the free content and information that you get here, here are four ways that you can support me in the show. One make you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen. Whether that's Apple podcasts, that purple app on your phone, your Android device, YouTube, Spotify, wherever it is that you happen to listen, just subscribe so you are not missing an episode. And if you're happening to listen to this and Apple podcasts, rate review and subscribe there, I appreciate and read every single review. Number two follow me on my social media accounts. I'm at journey to launch on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And I love love love interacting with journey are there. Three, support and checkout the sponsors of this show if you hear something that interests you, sponsors are the main ways we keep the podcast lights on here. So, show them some love for supporting your girl. Four And last but not least, share this episode this podcast with a friend or family member or coworker so that we can spread the message of Journey to Launch. Alright, that's it. Until next week, keep on journeying journeyers.